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Harvey Friedman bringing incompleteness and infinity out of quarantine

nautil.us

31–40 of 88 posts

Re: Harvey Friedman bringing incompleteness and infinity out of quarantine

#31
post #6

If you want to hear of Friedman in real debate there is great discussion in the foundations of mathematics mailing list archives that are public. There there is real lively yet high-standards scholar figth of first rate experts from all viewpoints. I liked for instance the 'myth of second order logic' theme initiated by S. Simpson. It seems to me that the article is wrong when it says that the spheres recompounded bi…

> I liked for instance the 'myth of second order logic' theme initiated by S. Simpson. Can you link to the thread? The archives seem gigantic

I made this version for me of the relevant posts, too big for pastebin, hope permissions are ok: https://app.box.com/s/l36rfge3stx6go34or6l64m2eexijd26 Some initial posts are warmup.

Re: Harvey Friedman bringing incompleteness and infinity out of quarantine

#32
post #27
post #6

If you want to hear of Friedman in real debate there is great discussion in the foundations of mathematics mailing list archives that are public. There there is real lively yet high-standards scholar figth of first rate experts from all viewpoints. I liked for instance the 'myth of second order logic' theme initiated by S. Simpson. It seems to me that the article is wrong when it says that the spheres recompounded bi…

I find Harvey Friedman has made the FOM mailing list completely unreadable. AND incredibly hostile to anyone with any sympathy to category theory, type theory, or the like. See https://plus.google.com/+CodyRoux/posts/6TiKLxjSCnu (not by me, but expressing many of the same thoughts I've had; I particularly agree with many of the comments made by John Baez).

That's true that categories are not going to find any special love there and that's sad. Much of the foundational tradition has been made in Set Theoretic language and its value cannot be ignored (think say on Gödel on CH), but it's sad that there is such community divide forbidding any osmosis. Categorical thinking leads to natural costless abstractions with practical unifying power and transversal applicability, and while that's not a FOM, it's an indicative that there may be something there. Also by comparison, as user fmap said, there is much coding in Set Theory. Just look at an ordered pair. In set theory it is the Kuratowski pair, and that a violent encoding. It a hack. We're not nearer to answer what they really are by that. Categorically they are a limit, which perhaps it's also not metaphysical chant, but we can feel it however less hacky.

Re: Harvey Friedman bringing incompleteness and infinity out of quarantine

#33
Interesting article. I can relate to his dictionary investigations when I was confronted with being taught about "circular definitions". I couldn't get around (no pun intended) the fact that all definitions were circular.

This is what has led me to developing ibGib, which as I stated here elsewhere (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13632500) that ibGib is heavily influenced by Goedel in that it uses a SHA-256 hash of an immutable datum to effectively be the Goedelian number of that datum. So there are four fields: ib, gib, data, rel8ns. The gib is the hash of the other three fields, which allows for integrity of the data, as well as allowing it to be content addressable since the ib^gib is the address. So it's a monotonically increasing data store that focuses on the process of defining.

So instead of "proofs" that imply an ontological/objective "truth", ibGib focuses on "the meta proof" that is the prov-ing process by assigning any "proving mechanism" a number (just as it assigns anything a number). This way, you are approaching paradoxes and the like as a process of economics and evolution of proving systems. This is like the "proof" that contains the peer review process that is doing the proving.

Re: Harvey Friedman bringing incompleteness and infinity out of quarantine

#34
post #30
post #8

There is a lot of ordinary mathematics that is outside of ZFC, which Friedman is well aware of but the writer of this article may not be. Grothendieck was not interested in abstract set theory when he introduced what are now called "Grothendieck Universes". He merely wanted to do algebraic geometry at a high level of abstraction. Similarly, Conway was apparently a bit dismayed when the formalization of his simple ide…

> a lot of ordinary mathematics that is outside of ZFC A lot of ordinary math? I think there's one if not two exaggerations in there. > My opinion is still that ZFC itself is unnatural as a foundation for mathematics, precisely because we have to do so much encoding to get anything useful out of it. One of the things Friedman likes to emphasize about the foundation of math is that there is very little you actually ne…

Algebraic geometry seems entirely like ordinary math, in the funny sense where it doesn't mean "elementary" but "the kind of thing mathematicians who don't intrinsically care about foundations like to do".

Re: Harvey Friedman bringing incompleteness and infinity out of quarantine

#35
post #30
post #8

There is a lot of ordinary mathematics that is outside of ZFC, which Friedman is well aware of but the writer of this article may not be. Grothendieck was not interested in abstract set theory when he introduced what are now called "Grothendieck Universes". He merely wanted to do algebraic geometry at a high level of abstraction. Similarly, Conway was apparently a bit dismayed when the formalization of his simple ide…

> a lot of ordinary mathematics that is outside of ZFC A lot of ordinary math? I think there's one if not two exaggerations in there. > My opinion is still that ZFC itself is unnatural as a foundation for mathematics, precisely because we have to do so much encoding to get anything useful out of it. One of the things Friedman likes to emphasize about the foundation of math is that there is very little you actually ne…

>In order to make these arguments less religious, I think it would be worthwhile to adopt Turing's mathematical philosophy, which called for adopting mathematical foundations on an ad-hoc basis (or even no foundation at all). In other words, choose whatever foundation (if any) for the task at hand. This would make it easier to argue that, say, type theory is a more convenient core for proof checkers.

I think you're misrepresenting the category theorists, they're usually the ones arguing for choosing whatever foundation is convenient for a given domain. A lot of the time, this is a type theoretic foundation because a lot of modern mathematics is about pretending you have function types when you don't actually have function types in your category (such as differential geometry) or that all you care about is a "core" set of operations and the rest of the framework you're working in simply gets in the way (such as Hilbert spaces vs. compact closed dagger categories in categorical quantum mechanics). And if you know already knew dependent type theory then synthetic homotopy theory is easier than classical homotopy theory, some proofs in homotopy theory can take several lectures to present and even then it will still be pretty hard to see why they hold.

It's just weird to see people thing the category theorists are the one being impractical compared to the set theorists like Friedman. I can't think of a categorical logician who doesn't have an active line of research outside of logic; usually in topology, computability, quantum mechanics, or algebraic geometry. They're not just logicians but active researchers in computer science, physics and mathematics, logic is a powerful tool and should be applied in these fields.

Re: Harvey Friedman bringing incompleteness and infinity out of quarantine

#36
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find Harvey Friedman has made the FOM mailing list completely unreadable. AND incredibly hostile to anyone with any sympathy to category theory, type theory, or the like. See https://plus.google.com/+CodyRoux/posts/6TiKLxjSCnu (not by me, but expressing many of the same thoughts I've had; I particularly agree with many of the comments made by John Baez).

That's true that categories are not going to find any special love there and that's sad. Much of the foundational tradition has been made in Set Theoretic language and its value cannot be ignored (think say on Gödel on CH), but it's sad that there is such community divide forbidding any osmosis. Categorical thinking leads to natural costless abstractions with practical unifying power and transversal applicability, an…

Categorically, what's a limit is an object of ordered pairs (assuming you define them negatively, by their projections), not individual ordered pairs, right?

If I recall correctly, categorical thinking doesn't emphasize elements of objects much, but in certain categories (perhaps pretoposes? I forget), morphisms from the terminal object to X can be considered the “global elements” of X.

Re: Harvey Friedman bringing incompleteness and infinity out of quarantine

#37
post #8

There is a lot of ordinary mathematics that is outside of ZFC, which Friedman is well aware of but the writer of this article may not be. Grothendieck was not interested in abstract set theory when he introduced what are now called "Grothendieck Universes". He merely wanted to do algebraic geometry at a high level of abstraction. Similarly, Conway was apparently a bit dismayed when the formalization of his simple ide…

Precisely. Any attempts of even discussion about Higher Order theories on that list ends up with Harvey stating something that can be translated to those without the technical expertise as "Every higher order theory is a first order theory in disguise". Which is true but besides the point. Just look at Peano's axiomatization of the Natural Numbers and perceive how intuitively bad it is at abstracting what Natural Numbers are. He constructs an "ugly" object that is isomorphic to Natural Numbers, but doesn't correspond to what Mathematicians intuitively believe the Natural Numbers to be. With a Second Order theory you can just axiomatize the Natural Number in a pretty straightforward way that correspond to Mathematician's intuition about the Set...

Re: Harvey Friedman bringing incompleteness and infinity out of quarantine

#38
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia says "Today ZFC is the standard form of axiomatic set theory and as such is the most common foundation of mathematics." What my parenthetical comment that you quoted meant to say (for anyone that was not familiar with it) is thaz ZFC is not some joke, or obscure set of axioms or something irrelevant. Without this remark I thought my comment read that way. I hope you will agree that ZFC is simply "standard m…

Certainly, ZFC is not a pathological constructed example. When a mathematician looks for a foundational set of axioms, ZFC is THE standard choice. It is, and has been, for the last ~90 years at least. My point was that foundational mathematics is rarely touched upon by a lot of normal pure mathematics (say number theory, field extension, graph theory). Interestingly, I believe a lot of people actually dislike the axi…

For countable sets, the Axiom of Choice becomes the Theorem of Choice...

Re: Harvey Friedman bringing incompleteness and infinity out of quarantine

#39
post #8

There is a lot of ordinary mathematics that is outside of ZFC, which Friedman is well aware of but the writer of this article may not be. Grothendieck was not interested in abstract set theory when he introduced what are now called "Grothendieck Universes". He merely wanted to do algebraic geometry at a high level of abstraction. Similarly, Conway was apparently a bit dismayed when the formalization of his simple ide…

[deleted]

Re: Harvey Friedman bringing incompleteness and infinity out of quarantine

#40
post #8

There is a lot of ordinary mathematics that is outside of ZFC, which Friedman is well aware of but the writer of this article may not be. Grothendieck was not interested in abstract set theory when he introduced what are now called "Grothendieck Universes". He merely wanted to do algebraic geometry at a high level of abstraction. Similarly, Conway was apparently a bit dismayed when the formalization of his simple ide…

Precisely. Any attempts of even discussion about Higher Order theories on that list ends up with Harvey stating something that can be translated to those without the technical expertise as "Every higher order theory is a first order theory in disguise". Which is true but besides the point. Just look at Peano's axiomatization of the Natural Numbers and perceive how intuitively bad it is at abstracting what Natural Num…

At the risk of asking a naïve question, why do you think the Peano axioms are ugly? As a mostly-lay mathematician I always thought they were quite elegant.
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