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Microsoft's browsers return to losing habits, fall to 25% share

computerworld.com

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Re: Microsoft's browsers return to losing habits, fall to 25% share

#31

Post by seanp2k2 »

flukus wrote: post #26
simula67 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These type of comments are useless to anyone who does not already agree with you. Point out how. Include examples and data

Because no private company should have that much control, we've been down that path and it was bad enough I thought it should be obvious. Then there's things like adding DRM, a user hostile "feature" google shoved down our throats. Visit netflix on a linux box and you'll discover that "works with chrome" is the new "works with IE".

It works in Ubuntu. Maybe I'm missing your point. It didn't used to work on Linux at all, without jumping through a ton of hoops pretending to not be Linux.

Re: Microsoft's browsers return to losing habits, fall to 25% share

#33

Post by gcp »

jazoom wrote: post #16
svl wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is exactly the attitude web developers had toward the IE/Netscape situation around the year 2000. I think that as web developers we have the responsibility to consider the health of the entire ecosystem, as well as long term consequences. If not us, then who?

Once Safari and Edge stop giving me headaches I might be more sympathetic to their cause. We still have new browsers popping up, like Brave and Vivaldi. We still have Firefox, which is decent. I don't understand what your concern is in this context.

The Edge and Firefox teams already spend large amounts of time being bug-compatible with Chrome so websites, especially mobile ones, continue to work.

That time would be better spent elsewhere.

(Note that Brave doesn't have its own engine, it's Chromium. Unsure about Vivaldi - is it Blink based or Presto based?)

Re: Microsoft's browsers return to losing habits, fall to 25% share

#34

Post by thirdsun »

ominous wrote: post #25
thirdsun wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your point and I actually make sure that my websites target IE10 and up, but it usually happens after I'm done in Chrome. Have you worked with Edge/IE? The pain starts with, as a Mac user, having to boot up a VM and ends with the, in my opinion, horrible development tools compared to Chrome or even Firefox. In this state Edge will never be more than an afterthought.

"as a Mac user, having to boot up a VM" So are you a developer, or a Mac user? Do you develop for Mac users, or users?

For users. Yet I happen to be a developer on a Mac like many others. As mentioned before I'll make sure that it works in IE/Edge, but having to jump through hoops to do so will never make me treat the process as more than a checklist item close to finishing the project. Of course I don't expect Windows developers to see it any other way with Safari.

This is a non-issue for cross-platform browsers.

Re: Microsoft's browsers return to losing habits, fall to 25% share

#35

Post by gcp »

seanp2k2 wrote: post #31
flukus wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because no private company should have that much control, we've been down that path and it was bad enough I thought it should be obvious. Then there's things like adding DRM, a user hostile "feature" google shoved down our throats. Visit netflix on a linux box and you'll discover that "works with chrome" is the new "works with IE".

It works in Ubuntu. Maybe I'm missing your point. It didn't used to work on Linux at all, without jumping through a ton of hoops pretending to not be Linux.

It only works if your browser claims to be Chrome. (That's how you can get it working in Firefox, too)

Re: Microsoft's browsers return to losing habits, fall to 25% share

#36

Post by flukus »

seanp2k2 wrote: post #31
flukus wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because no private company should have that much control, we've been down that path and it was bad enough I thought it should be obvious. Then there's things like adding DRM, a user hostile "feature" google shoved down our throats. Visit netflix on a linux box and you'll discover that "works with chrome" is the new "works with IE".

It works in Ubuntu. Maybe I'm missing your point. It didn't used to work on Linux at all, without jumping through a ton of hoops pretending to not be Linux.

The point is you should never have had to pretend, web browsers shouldn't contain DRM. It's not working for me on arch.

Re: Microsoft's browsers return to losing habits, fall to 25% share

#37

Post by gcp »

yAnonymous wrote: post #28
svl wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is exactly the attitude web developers had toward the IE/Netscape situation around the year 2000. I think that as web developers we have the responsibility to consider the health of the entire ecosystem, as well as long term consequences. If not us, then who?

>I think that as web developers we have the responsibility [...] I'm all for being idealistic, but you can't expect developers to use a software that lacks in performance, features and security. I'm talking about Firefox by the way, because if you really >consider the health of the entire ecosystem, as well as long term consequences that is the obvious choice, not Edge.

These things are somewhat self-reinforcing. Many sites feel slower with Firefox because they've been developed on Chrome and avoid the slower sides of Chrome, yet won't take advantage of the paths in Firefox that are faster than Chrome.

This has been especially evident on some Google properties like Google Docs, or the incident where Inbox couldn't support Firefox because it implemented a function correctly where Chrome didn't.

That said, I hardly notice any performance difference on most sites, and IMHO Firefox behaves much better with a large amount of tabs. Security is the main issue, but Firefox sandboxing is starting to roll out.

Re: Microsoft's browsers return to losing habits, fall to 25% share

#38

Post by jazoom »

gcp wrote: post #33
jazoom wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once Safari and Edge stop giving me headaches I might be more sympathetic to their cause. We still have new browsers popping up, like Brave and Vivaldi. We still have Firefox, which is decent. I don't understand what your concern is in this context.

The Edge and Firefox teams already spend large amounts of time being bug-compatible with Chrome so websites, especially mobile ones, continue to work. That time would be better spent elsewhere. (Note that Brave doesn't have its own engine, it's Chromium. Unsure about Vivaldi - is it Blink based or Presto based?)

Sure. But until someone comes up with the magic wand to fix this I'd prefer one set of bugs to deal with rather than 4. I don't believe the open web is hurt by this, which was the whole point of the original comment.

Re: Microsoft's browsers return to losing habits, fall to 25% share

#39

Post by gcp »

jazoom wrote: post #38
gcp wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Edge and Firefox teams already spend large amounts of time being bug-compatible with Chrome so websites, especially mobile ones, continue to work. That time would be better spent elsewhere. (Note that Brave doesn't have its own engine, it's Chromium. Unsure about Vivaldi - is it Blink based or Presto based?)

Sure. But until someone comes up with the magic wand to fix this I'd prefer one set of bugs to deal with rather than 4. I don't believe the open web is hurt by this, which was the whole point of the original comment.

Thing is as long as web engines evolve you can't have this. There was a moment say 3 or 4 years ago when some people, including key jQuery devs, were saying that Firefox should just switch to WebKit and that would solve web development because there'd be only one engine to target.

What actually happened is that Android phones got stuck on several outdated WebKit versions, Safari on another, and then Chrome forked WebKit into Blink.

So instead of one engine, you now have...like 5 or 6, realistically.

Trying to target standards compliance instead of relying on browser quirks is still the best strategy, both for devs and the ecosystem. It was in 2002 and it still is in 2017. Without it, we wouldn't have iPhones, Android phones or Chrome, for crying out loud.

Re: Microsoft's browsers return to losing habits, fall to 25% share

#40

Post by benaiah »

gcp wrote: post #33
jazoom wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once Safari and Edge stop giving me headaches I might be more sympathetic to their cause. We still have new browsers popping up, like Brave and Vivaldi. We still have Firefox, which is decent. I don't understand what your concern is in this context.

The Edge and Firefox teams already spend large amounts of time being bug-compatible with Chrome so websites, especially mobile ones, continue to work. That time would be better spent elsewhere. (Note that Brave doesn't have its own engine, it's Chromium. Unsure about Vivaldi - is it Blink based or Presto based?)

Vivaldi is an Electron-based wrapper for Chromium - thus it's Blink, not Presto. Since Opera moved to Blink a while back as well, I'm fairly certain no extant browser uses that rendering engine, and I believe its development has ceased entirely.
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