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The deep roots of modern resentment

economist.com

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Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#31

Post by germinalphrase »

EekSnakePond wrote: post #26
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are conflating economic neoliberalism (which is neither new nor contemporarily liberal) with social liberalism. They are not the same and nobody is pretending that they are. I still fail to see your connection: 1: Slaves 2: Democracy 3: ???? 4: Profit(?) Could you explain with links or examples how exactly slavery (or economic peonage, depending on your definition), is required to maintain a democracy?

> You are conflating economic neoliberalism with social liberalism. I agree it appears I'm making this conflation. But > nobody is pretending that they are: Is not an honest statement. Any attempt to make cheap brown labor more expensive through legislation (See the Trump protests) or even by IMPROVING their quality of life (See gentrification) is instantly fought off as racist. The powers that be have deeply merged…

Gentrification pushes low income people out of their communities by increasing the costs of living there beyond their capacity to absorb those costs. It is also not inherently racist (as it affects anyone who is low income), but is one mechanism through which racial inequities are exacerbated in our country.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#32

Post by sahaj »

EekSnakePond wrote: post #19
compiler-guy wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't a proposal to replace capitalism, that is a small detail of a proposal. A single sentence that is a kernel of an idea (and probably a good one), but far from a sufficient argument. Please give an alternative proposal. A link is fine.

> That isn't a proposal to replace capitalism Put down the Marxism for 5 seconds and follow my original premise all the way to it's logical end. - Make the slaves as expensive as the natives. - Why would you need slaves in this scenario? - You wouldn't. - If slaves and natives are equal cost, then machines are given incentives to outperform both. - Western liberalism is completely flipped on its head in a world where…

The "right" hates the idea of a minimum wage.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#33

Post by stinkytaco »

dandare wrote: post #5

Sometimes I feel like the more has been achieved by western liberalism the more is it being criticized for not magically fixing everything there is to be fixed. Coincidentally those who criticize it never offer alternative realistic solutions.

It's easier to complain than it is to fix, but I also think that's why people don't offer solutions more readily. Solutions are iterative and difficult. If you offer small solutions you put yourself out there to be criticized for the solution not being enough, and if you offer large ones, you open yourself up to criticism that the solution is unrealistic. This is why so few people go into politics and why it can be so dysfunctional in a hyper connected society. All is criticism.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#34

Post by crdoconnor »

dandare wrote: post #5

Sometimes I feel like the more has been achieved by western liberalism the more is it being criticized for not magically fixing everything there is to be fixed. Coincidentally those who criticize it never offer alternative realistic solutions.

>Coincidentally those who criticize it never offer alternative realistic solutions.

The choice to depict, say, Sanders' proposals as unrealistic by straw manning them was a deliberate political attack:

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Columns/2016/01/22/What-Libera...

Unfortunately the average Democrat primary voter didn't dig into the substance of the attack well enough to realize that it was essentially bullshit. They simply believed Krugman's lies.

The voters wanted a change from the status quo.

And that is why Trump is now your president.

A similar dynamic is now occurring in the UK. Corbyn's ideas (e.g. rail nationalization/pay caps) are routinely depicted as unrealistic. If people continue to believe those lies, the far right will be seen instead as the 'viable' alternative.

The same kinds of economists who declare pay caps unrealistic and are weirdly enough absolutely blind to unsustainable build ups of debt causing financial crises but pretend that magic robots are about to put 80% of us out of work in the next ten years. That's "realistic" I suppose.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#35

Post by jwhitlark »

It took >100,000 years for humans to spread across the globe. Reuniting them in a far shorter span of time was always going to be a messy process.

I'm not saying we're doing everything right, I'm just saying it's amazing that we're able to do it at all.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#36

Post by guard-of-terra »

iak8god wrote: post #6
guard-of-terra wrote: post #2

Unfortunately this article doesn't penetrate this extremelly important topic. It doesn't arrive anywhere. > Ceaseless change gave birth to liberalism, which, for all the mistakes made in its name, continues to adapt. Despite those mistakes, it remains the best response today. I mean, seriously? That's proof by assertion.

This "article" is a book review. The author of the review is trying in 1200 words to give the reader of this review a sense for what the 400+ page book is about -- not to present a compelling and penetrating argument for any particular point of view.

This means I don't like book reviews on HN, that's like paywall but worse.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#37

Post by jdmichal »

the_duke wrote: post #23
m_fayer wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. The basics of liberalism as we see it today - rule of law and representative democracy, are young. How many presently-unthinkable violations of liberalism were committed by a Western nation within the lifespan of someone who is 90 today, with full public support? Outright genocide, systematic persecution and disenfranchisement of whole races and genders, violent militarised colonialism, you name it. Build…

It's easy to forget that what we understand now as a liberal democracy with free press, rule of law and the right for everyone to vote is extremely young. Just look at the time when women were granted voting rights (1). The US, by some seen as the 'holy grail' of modern democracy, officially allowed women to vote in 1919 (ironically many of the Democratic party were opposed), had extensive voter supression such as li…

The Democratic party of 1919 did not have the same modern liberalist principles of the Democratic party of today. The parties are not static entities with the same principles extending back to their founding.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#38

Post by droopyEyelids »

dandare wrote: post #5

Sometimes I feel like the more has been achieved by western liberalism the more is it being criticized for not magically fixing everything there is to be fixed. Coincidentally those who criticize it never offer alternative realistic solutions.

I strongly disagree. But I think i understand where you're coming from, because instead of 'alternatives' the answer is to stop doing many of our western liberal behaviors.

The alternative to a campaign of drone warfare is to not do the campaign.

The alternative to regime change and overthrow of democratically elected governments is to treat the nation as a sovereign nation, and not overthrow their government.

The alternative to concentrated wealth and monopolists is to split up the monopoly, and make do with smaller 'less efficient' companies.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#39

Post by EekSnakePond »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #24
EekSnakePond wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That isn't a proposal to replace capitalism Put down the Marxism for 5 seconds and follow my original premise all the way to it's logical end. - Make the slaves as expensive as the natives. - Why would you need slaves in this scenario? - You wouldn't. - If slaves and natives are equal cost, then machines are given incentives to outperform both. - Western liberalism is completely flipped on its head in a world where…

And here is the challenge of that suggestion; what mechanism do you propose to "make them equally expensive" ? There are many things you can 'say' but not 'do', for example 'write the largest integer on this piece of paper'. That is easy to say, and it sounds easy, just put a number down on a piece of paper, but the number requested is not representable and so the suggestion is actually impossible. Your statement "Ma…

You and germinalphrase should check your emails. I've given detailed answers on how to do all of this and addressed your points.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#40

Post by the_duke »

jdmichal wrote: post #37
the_duke wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to forget that what we understand now as a liberal democracy with free press, rule of law and the right for everyone to vote is extremely young. Just look at the time when women were granted voting rights (1). The US, by some seen as the 'holy grail' of modern democracy, officially allowed women to vote in 1919 (ironically many of the Democratic party were opposed), had extensive voter supression such as li…

The Democratic party of 1919 did not have the same modern liberalist principles of the Democratic party of today. The parties are not static entities with the same principles extending back to their founding.

Yeah I know, that also wasn't meant as a criticism to the current DNC, it's more about the word 'Democratic party'.

You have to appreciate the irony of a `Democrat` filibustering a woman voting rights act.

But that's our current view. Reading press articles from back then when this issue was discussed in many countries in Europe is quite entertaining also.

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