I was trained for the culture wars in home school • Hacker News Board

Re: I was trained for the culture wars in home school

#31

Post by new299 » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 10:04 AM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #27

new299 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I genuinely believe that home schooling shouldn't be allowed, except for kids with disabilities which stop them from leaving home. That doesn't really seem like a well reasoned argument. Can you provide any data to backup that statement? Let's try some quick googling. This article looks pretty good: http://www.educationandbehavior.com/what-does-research-say-a... Two interesting quotes from a paper they cite: "For i…

The statement literally said "I believe that [...]". How can I provide data to back up that statement? I never reasoned that home schooling doesn't provide results, or that home schooled students do worse. I'm sure that with dedicated enough parents, it will provide results, and the students will do better or at least just as well! I still think that it shouldn't be allowed. I'm not sure how I can provide sources on…

Sorry, I should have said "could you provide data which shows your believe is valid/would make the world better?"

Stating "I believe X" without any basis in reality doesn't seem like a useful contribution to any discussion really...

Re: I was trained for the culture wars in home school

#32

Post by kartan » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 10:05 AM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #21

kartan wrote: post #4

High-quality free state-run secular schools is one of the most important social achievements. In that schools a new generation can grow and learn while minimizing radicalization. That new generation meets people from different cultures and religion since they are children and learn to accept the differences. This doesn't solves all problems, is not a silver bulled, but it improves society at large. I never understood…

High quality state run Party schools are one of the most important social achievements. In those schools a new generation can grow and learn in the care of the Party while minimising radicalisation. That new generation learns about how World Jewry threatens the Aryan race and how the German Nation and the Nazi Party will lead us to greatness. This doesn't solve all problems, is not a silver bullet, but it improves so…

School is NOT the only source of knowledge. Parents have the most important role in teaching values. The school has an important role in socialization. School teaches the children that they are part of society and that there is people out there that are different and that's a good thing.

It is as bad that children ONLY learn from their parents that children ONLY learn from the state. Both radical situations go against a complete and balanced education.

I'm against "the state should be the only educator", my mistake if I didn't expressed that correctly.

Re: I was trained for the culture wars in home school

#33

Post by Inconel » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 10:09 AM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #27

new299 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I genuinely believe that home schooling shouldn't be allowed, except for kids with disabilities which stop them from leaving home. That doesn't really seem like a well reasoned argument. Can you provide any data to backup that statement? Let's try some quick googling. This article looks pretty good: http://www.educationandbehavior.com/what-does-research-say-a... Two interesting quotes from a paper they cite: "For i…

The statement literally said "I believe that [...]". How can I provide data to back up that statement? I never reasoned that home schooling doesn't provide results, or that home schooled students do worse. I'm sure that with dedicated enough parents, it will provide results, and the students will do better or at least just as well! I still think that it shouldn't be allowed. I'm not sure how I can provide sources on…

I'm not nearly knowledgable enough about this subject to have a well informed opinion and my only exposure to homeschooled kids have turned out to be very well adjusted adults. Despite my own anecdotal experience, I'm certainly open to any data showing the overall negative effects that homeschooling may have on the societal level, but if you strongly believe it shouldn't be allowed, and yet this belief isn't based on any solid reasoning or evidence, isn't that somewhat similar to the kind of unfounded beliefs on display in the article?

Re: I was trained for the culture wars in home school

#34

Post by bambax » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 10:18 AM UTC

cconcepts wrote: post #26

Very well written. Although this article is quite emotive and could be considered an extreme point of view, I think it is important to read in order to understand the multitude of voices wanting to be heard in the current quagmire. I disagree with some of the assumptions made but nonetheless think this is a voice that should be heard. As a follower of Jesus (I have to be careful how I say Christian because of how loa…

> this is an intelligent, thoughtful community

I really, really don't think so. "Jesus" (who probably never even existed) isn't the problem, though. Religions are.

That they should be "respected" as just a normal human behavior is the problem. That superstition should be considered seriously instead of being fought, esp. in young minds, is the problem.

That separate schools should exist in the name of superstition, that people should be allowed to not even send their children to school but indoctrinate them themselves, is the problem.

There is such a thing as too much freedom, and the result is catastrophic.

Re: I was trained for the culture wars in home school

#35

Post by bambax » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 10:23 AM UTC

_petronius wrote: post #18

gambiting wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I genuinely believe that home schooling shouldn't be allowed, except for kids with disabilities which stop them from leaving home. It just seems to me that Americans fear radical islam, while extremely radical Christianity grows right under their noses. I agree that free state-run secular schools are the way to go for modern society.

Fun fact: here in Germany, home schooling is illegal. I'm with you -- I think this is probably for the best. After all, how do you get kids to learn to socialize and integrate with society at large (regardless of their background), if they don't attend school and get out from under their parents? But this is also the only basis on which Germans can typically sucessfully claim asylum in the US, and have successfully i…

I don't know much about Germany but if what you say is true, it's great for the country: they are able to successfully expatriate the crazies out -- hey, the crazies expatriate themselves, willfully! That's pure magic.

Re: I was trained for the culture wars in home school

#36

Post by bambax » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 10:27 AM UTC

Why exactly is this flagged? Is it not "interesting"?

Re: I was trained for the culture wars in home school

#37

Post by vacri » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 10:36 AM UTC

new299 wrote: post #25

gambiting wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I genuinely believe that home schooling shouldn't be allowed, except for kids with disabilities which stop them from leaving home. It just seems to me that Americans fear radical islam, while extremely radical Christianity grows right under their noses. I agree that free state-run secular schools are the way to go for modern society.

> I genuinely believe that home schooling shouldn't be allowed, except for kids with disabilities which stop them from leaving home. That doesn't really seem like a well reasoned argument. Can you provide any data to backup that statement? Let's try some quick googling. This article looks pretty good: http://www.educationandbehavior.com/what-does-research-say-a... Two interesting quotes from a paper they cite: "For i…

So I went hunting from that link, since scoring so highly simply doesn't pass the sniff test. The reference is an academic paper full of weasel words ('many studies show' type stuff), and that particular commentary (1,952 students bit) came from a book by Brian D. Ray, a not exactly neutral proponent given he is the president of the National Home Education Research Institute. I didn't find a relevant excerpt from the book, but I have found an infographic[1] based on it and other articles.

Turns out that it doesn't matter how poor or uneducated the parents, the students still perform in the top 20%, including maths and science (the latter being particularly suspect given the strong showing of fundamentalist religion in the homeschooling world).

Going back to the reference paper and pulling another reference[2], it clearly states in the abstract that while they found significantly higher rates of performance in the home-schooled kids, they also had a significantly more educated parents and significantly higher family income... and also clearly state that since their experiment wasn't controlled, you shouldn't read too much into it.

These numbers in that link are cooked. They're nonsense. That link is using weasel words, apples-to-oranges comparisons, and pulling info from non-neutral parties. Is home schooling better or worse? Well, it depends; it is better for some, and there are certainly some myths. But that link is cooked.

[1]https://www.nheri.org/HERR.pdf

[2]http://epaa.asu.edu/ojs/article/view/543

Re: I was trained for the culture wars in home school

#38

Post by new299 » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 11:02 AM UTC

vacri wrote: post #37

new299 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I genuinely believe that home schooling shouldn't be allowed, except for kids with disabilities which stop them from leaving home. That doesn't really seem like a well reasoned argument. Can you provide any data to backup that statement? Let's try some quick googling. This article looks pretty good: http://www.educationandbehavior.com/what-does-research-say-a... Two interesting quotes from a paper they cite: "For i…

So I went hunting from that link, since scoring so highly simply doesn't pass the sniff test. The reference is an academic paper full of weasel words ('many studies show' type stuff), and that particular commentary (1,952 students bit) came from a book by Brian D. Ray, a not exactly neutral proponent given he is the president of the National Home Education Research Institute. I didn't find a relevant excerpt from the…

Thanks, looking over the references myself I'd tend to agree. The Widener Law Review paper itself looks pretty biased.

I'd like to find a more recent, less biased review if anyone knows of one.

Re: I was trained for the culture wars in home school

#39

Post by new299 » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 11:18 AM UTC

guard-of-terra wrote: post #30

new299 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With respect, the problem is that you are both using gut reactions and anecdotal personal experience in order to determine the correct government policy. You could approach it from a civil liberties angle. But if you're really interested in what would be best for the population overall, perhaps try and cite some data? It took me 5 minutes of Google searching to find some interesting results...

> for the population overall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ones_Who_Walk_Away_from_Om... It was definitely good for them to hold that child in the basement! As a population overall. Why would I care about "civil liberties" if they come at cost of ruining my life? And I know I'm not in any way an exception. I won't be around enjoying them, right? Do I look like a person who enjoys anything right now?

I think I wasn't clear on my meaning of "civil liberties".

My meaning was this you can argue the following: That home schooling is a kind of basic human right. That there are some rights that a parent has to determine how their child is brought up.

I'm not making that argument. But I would be interested in hearing it. And hearing a justification for it.

Sounds like the Ursula K. Le Guin story is exploring individual versus group wellbeing. Thanks for posting it, I'll try and read it sometime.

On a personal note: I do know that school can be a horrible place. It can also be a huge time wasting exercise. I intensely disliked it. I'm sorry that you had a bad experience there, schooling can be particularly distressing because it's an experience forced upon you at a young age. I hope you are able to work through your problems.

A few weeks ago, at a local school (in Japan), a teacher beat a child in an after school class with a Kendo stick. The child was in hospital for a month. Very bad things happen at schools...

But... these are all single data points. And I honestly want to understand the wider picture.

Re: I was trained for the culture wars in home school

#40

Post by m0nty » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 12:43 PM UTC

bambax wrote: post #34

cconcepts wrote: post #26

Very well written. Although this article is quite emotive and could be considered an extreme point of view, I think it is important to read in order to understand the multitude of voices wanting to be heard in the current quagmire. I disagree with some of the assumptions made but nonetheless think this is a voice that should be heard. As a follower of Jesus (I have to be careful how I say Christian because of how loa…

> this is an intelligent, thoughtful community I really, really don't think so. "Jesus" (who probably never even existed) isn't the problem, though. Religions are. That they should be "respected" as just a normal human behavior is the problem. That superstition should be considered seriously instead of being fought, esp. in young minds, is the problem. That separate schools should exist in the name of superstition, t…

> I really, really don't think so

Hacker News is, I think that was the intended meaning.