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Mikhail Gorbachev: 'It All Looks as If the World Is Preparing for War'

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev: 'It All Looks as If the World Is Preparing for War'

#31

Post by steego »

gspetr wrote: post #24
unknown_apostle wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gorbachev inherited 65 years of Soviet communism: a super fragile system, based on very tight, top-down command & control. On the surface these command & control societies appear more orderly than democratic societies, but they are very bad at dealing with complexity and at adapting to big changes. Gorbachev made the "mistake" of perturbing the system too much through his attempts at reform. Also, economically, I don…

The problem with your argument is the existence of China, to this day ruled by the Communist party of China. It's GDP grew by a factor of 25 since the fall of the Soviet Union.

China learned from Russia's experience and slowly loosened the reins on key industries before loosening the reins on other industries without completely relinquishing control.

The key problem with command and control economies in the 20th century was those economies were fundamentally limited by the command's ability to capture accurate market data, learn they key insights about that data and then execute smart decisions.

I'm not claiming China is capable of doing that today, but information technology has significantly improved the efficacy of the leadership's influence on economic activity. However, they were also wise enough to distribute the work of optimising markets by allowing business owners and capital investors to benefit from the efficiencies they introduce.

Simply put: The Communist Party of China has been using a very different playbook for the past 30 years and they've benefitted significantly and the effect of IT has had a profound impact on their efficacy.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev: 'It All Looks as If the World Is Preparing for War'

#32

Post by ncr100 »

general_ai wrote: post #4

As a former Soviet citizen, I fail to see why anyone would care what this clown has to say. No one in Russia cares, for example. He basically ran a superpower into the ground in 6 years flat, from space shuttle to hunger and abject poverty for most of the population. Not even a CIA puppet regime would be able to do a better job.

This Attack on the man is flawed. Cold war lasted longer than his 6 years in power.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev: 'It All Looks as If the World Is Preparing for War'

#33

Post by dgudkov »

ak39 wrote: post #3

Scary prospect for us all. I read a Pilger article last year that sent chills down my back: http://johnpilger.com/articles/a-world-war-has-begun-break-t...

His view of the world is very skewed. I wouldn't take him as an authority.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev: 'It All Looks as If the World Is Preparing for War'

#34

Post by general_ai »

viljar wrote: post #25
gspetr wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free his people? The man actually walked all over the will of the people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_referendum,_1991 Those who grew up in Russia in the 90s see this differently. People had to turn to growing vegetables in their rural cottages (dachas) to survive. Massive unemployment, staggering inflation. Gang leaders elected as mayors and governors who murdered anyone who dared to oppose them. Does…

People always had to grow vegetables in their dachas to survive up until the collapse of soviet union. In the beginning(1944+ for Estonia) authorities snatched everything you grew and shipped it to russia and murdered anyone who tried to oppose and some who didn't, just in case. No wonder Moscow lived prosperously:) I remember very vividly the empty shelves in shops as long as I can remember and my memories span few…

Methinks if you guys didn't help the Nazis, you'd be treated more humanely immediately post war. I can sorta understand the lack of love the Soviet government would have towards you at the time.

At the same time the Baltic republics always felt like an artificial part of the USSR, only a little closer than e.g. Bulgaria or DDR. The same can't be said of Belarus and Ukraine, which were culturally, ethnically, and territorially more cohesive in the greater whole, and the loss of which was tragic, and has repercussions to this day.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev: 'It All Looks as If the World Is Preparing for War'

#35

Post by general_ai »

steego wrote: post #31
gspetr wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with your argument is the existence of China, to this day ruled by the Communist party of China. It's GDP grew by a factor of 25 since the fall of the Soviet Union.

China learned from Russia's experience and slowly loosened the reins on key industries before loosening the reins on other industries without completely relinquishing control. The key problem with command and control economies in the 20th century was those economies were fundamentally limited by the command's ability to capture accurate market data, learn they key insights about that data and then execute smart decis…

I think you're over complicating this a bit. Simply put, they first gave their people economic freedoms (and then not all at once) and then started loosening up in terms of political freedoms. If it takes them 50-100 years, so be it. That actually strikes me as a much more viable approach. You can't really give people freedom if they don't know what to do with it. Not without repercussions at least.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev: 'It All Looks as If the World Is Preparing for War'

#36

Post by unknown_apostle »

mr_overalls wrote: post #29
gspetr wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with your argument is the existence of China, to this day ruled by the Communist party of China. It's GDP grew by a factor of 25 since the fall of the Soviet Union.

Apples to oranges. China, while communist, does not have a centrally-planned economy like the USSR had. They began a series of extensive economic reforms in 1978, leading to privatization of industries, opening to foreign investment, allowances for entrepreneurship, etc.

Also, I think when China began its gradual reform, the country quite simply already had hit rock bottom, coming out of the utter chaos of the cultural revolution. Chaos is different from a fragile order. You can't burn down ashes.

But we seem to have strayed off course somewhat.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev: 'It All Looks as If the World Is Preparing for War'

#37

Post by Nomentatus »

general_ai wrote: post #7
Nomentatus wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I remember, the price of oil and the previous Soviet neglect of their oil field infrastructure figured in heavily, there.

You "remember" wrong. I actually _was_ there. Neglect and price of oil weren't in any way fatal to a largely self-sufficient country. Complete collapse of all branches of the government was.

The empire certainly wasn't self-sufficient, although the Russian center was richer. The empire depended on very large-scale oil exports, to subsidize the bloc. Even with those exports, the line-ups for basics was real in Russia, too. Russia's self-sufficiency isn't much in evidence today, either, as the economy shrinks year-on-year, and three-quarters of a million of the most capable people emigrate each year.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev: 'It All Looks as If the World Is Preparing for War'

#38

Post by viljar »

general_ai wrote: post #34
viljar wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People always had to grow vegetables in their dachas to survive up until the collapse of soviet union. In the beginning(1944+ for Estonia) authorities snatched everything you grew and shipped it to russia and murdered anyone who tried to oppose and some who didn't, just in case. No wonder Moscow lived prosperously:) I remember very vividly the empty shelves in shops as long as I can remember and my memories span few…

Methinks if you guys didn't help the Nazis, you'd be treated more humanely immediately post war. I can sorta understand the lack of love the Soviet government would have towards you at the time. At the same time the Baltic republics always felt like an artificial part of the USSR, only a little closer than e.g. Bulgaria or DDR. The same can't be said of Belarus and Ukraine, which were culturally, ethnically, and terr…

Yeahh, go to Poland and tell them how they "helped" nazis and that's why they were run over by Soviets:)

EDIT: Culturally we were even farther from CCCP than Bulgaria, I guess, but that is my opinion only formed from my own experience visiting all those countries You have mentioned.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev: 'It All Looks as If the World Is Preparing for War'

#39

Post by general_ai »

viljar wrote: post #38
general_ai wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Methinks if you guys didn't help the Nazis, you'd be treated more humanely immediately post war. I can sorta understand the lack of love the Soviet government would have towards you at the time. At the same time the Baltic republics always felt like an artificial part of the USSR, only a little closer than e.g. Bulgaria or DDR. The same can't be said of Belarus and Ukraine, which were culturally, ethnically, and terr…

Yeahh, go to Poland and tell them how they "helped" nazis and that's why they were run over by Soviets:) EDIT: Culturally we were even farther from CCCP than Bulgaria, I guess, but that is my opinion only formed from my own experience visiting all those countries You have mentioned.

And I guess we should just forget about Forest Brothers and stuff, amirite?
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