Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History • Hacker News Board

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#31

Post by hackuser » Sat, Jan 21, 2017, 11:47 PM UTC

lend000 wrote: post #15

hackuser wrote: post #7

An important detail: Comcast, backed by the local Chamber of Commerce, has threatened to sue the city over this law. On what basis? The corporation's Constitutional First Amendment free speech right to ask the question: http://www.investopedia.com/news/comcast-threatens-sue-city-... Are these the same free speech rights the Supreme Court recently bestowed on the corporations? I remember that at the time legal analyst…

Are all employers corporations? And even as such, this is just outlawing information. I do not understand how so many on the left support such a measure. It's a question -- outlawing questions, especially between private parties in a consensual relationship (applicant and employer), is backwards. You can choose not to answer it; you can lie; you can choose not to work for employers that ask the question in the first…

The principles you raise require a relationship where parties have relatively equal power.

For example, if the CEO of a Fortune 500 company pushes a janitor for sex, you can say the janitor has the "free choice" to deny the CEO, but that's not really the case. If a high-profile coach tells one of their team members to do something inappropriate, the college kid has the 'free choice' to say no, but not really.

This rule is actually the law; the validity of contracts depends in part on the relative power of the parties who negotiated it. A bank can negotiate a contract with a naive person which sells the bank all the the person's possessions for $1, but no court will enforce it.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#32

Post by icebraining » Sat, Jan 21, 2017, 11:48 PM UTC

hackuser wrote: post #26

rayiner wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a red herring. You can hold individuals responsible for misleading statements in financial disclosures notwithstanding the fact that individuals indisputably have free speech rights. At the same time, if you can ban a corporation from asking the question about salary history, you should be able to ban a sole proprietorship or partnership from asking the question too.

> You can hold individuals responsible for misleading statements in financial disclosures notwithstanding the fact that individuals indisputably have free speech rights I'm not sure you can be effective if you do it reactively with lawsuits; who can afford to sue a Wall Street bank? You need regulations and rules. Also, the problem is not just misleading statements, but requiring that essential information is include…

The State itself can sue the banks for those misleading statements, e.g.: https://www.sec.gov/spotlight/enf-actions-fc.shtml

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#33

Post by hackuser » Sat, Jan 21, 2017, 11:51 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #32

hackuser wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can hold individuals responsible for misleading statements in financial disclosures notwithstanding the fact that individuals indisputably have free speech rights I'm not sure you can be effective if you do it reactively with lawsuits; who can afford to sue a Wall Street bank? You need regulations and rules. Also, the problem is not just misleading statements, but requiring that essential information is include…

The State itself can sue the banks for those misleading statements, e.g.: https://www.sec.gov/spotlight/enf-actions-fc.shtml

Yes. The point is that corporations' new 'free speech rights' may interfere with that.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#34

Post by winter_blue » Sat, Jan 21, 2017, 11:54 PM UTC

ch4s3 wrote: post #28

winter_blue wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A society truly run by the people, ala individuals, would have banned this I'm libertarian-leaning, and statements like these bother me deeply. If I'm an employer, why ban me from asking some question to a prospective employee? It's a restriction on the employer's freedom. The job applicant has a right to decline to answer my question (and I have a right to decline to offer a job). Regulating what questions I can a…

> Regulating what questions I can ask (i.e. my speech) is a restriction on my freedom. I don't believe this type of question has ever been held to be political speech, so the government isn't bound to protect it. Allowing employers extra power to depress wages isn't in the interest of the government, or the employees. There are more parties interested in opposing this type of power imbalance than maintaining it, so i…

> held to be political speech

Freedom of Speech extends well beyond just political speech.

It protects all forms of speech. Where did you get the idea that only political speech ought to be protected? Under your theory, who gets to determine what constitutes political speech?

Is my freedom to criticize a religion protected? Or is that kind of speech not protected as it does not fall under your definition of "political speech"?

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#35

Post by rhizome » Sat, Jan 21, 2017, 11:54 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #14

hackuser wrote: post #7

An important detail: Comcast, backed by the local Chamber of Commerce, has threatened to sue the city over this law. On what basis? The corporation's Constitutional First Amendment free speech right to ask the question: http://www.investopedia.com/news/comcast-threatens-sue-city-... Are these the same free speech rights the Supreme Court recently bestowed on the corporations? I remember that at the time legal analyst…

Free speech already has well known limits. Copywrite is an obvious one. Anyway, salary history's are discriminatory which seems like something that probably already has case law.

Economic status is not a protected class.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#36

Post by rhizome » Sat, Jan 21, 2017, 11:58 PM UTC

gesman wrote: post #4

Asking doesn't hurt anyone. However giving certain answers could. What prevents employees from claiming that this information is "confidential" (polite version of "it's not your business"). Or outright lying about it?

Lying is not a good way to start off a business relationshiop.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#37

Post by rhizome » Sun, Jan 22, 2017, 12:00 AM UTC

hackuser wrote: post #33

icebraining wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The State itself can sue the banks for those misleading statements, e.g.: https://www.sec.gov/spotlight/enf-actions-fc.shtml

Yes. The point is that corporations' new 'free speech rights' may interfere with that.

What new rights are you referring to, Citizen's United?

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#38

Post by 1_2__3 » Sun, Jan 22, 2017, 12:02 AM UTC

hackuser wrote: post #10

Most innovation and progress now is at the city level (I'm not the first to say it). Name the last thing government achieved at a national level in the U.S. - there's health care, but that's now looking shaky. The priority of one major party in the U.S. is to shut down government as much as possible; that party can block progress everywhere but in cities, where they have no power for now. However, they are trying to…

I'd argue in most cases both the federal government and the various state governments have largely stopped governing. They make lots of noise about social issues and do some day-to-day stuff but I don't really see them as doing their jobs in the way they used to. Not making any comments or guesses as to why, just saying that seems to be the world we're living in.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#39

Post by TheSageMage » Sun, Jan 22, 2017, 12:02 AM UTC

ch4s3 wrote: post #24

lend000 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are all employers corporations? And even as such, this is just outlawing information. I do not understand how so many on the left support such a measure. It's a question -- outlawing questions, especially between private parties in a consensual relationship (applicant and employer), is backwards. You can choose not to answer it; you can lie; you can choose not to work for employers that ask the question in the first…

Probably because there is a very large disparity in power and information. A few points: 1. You will always need the job more than Comcast will need you (unless you're unusually skilled, most workers aren't) 2. Comcast knows how much the pay every one of their employees, you the job seeker do not. 3. Comcast is only asking so they can figure out the lowest pay you'll accept. You have no way to figure out how high the…

I think all your other points are good, but a response to #4. I think one issue might be that it's ambiguous to enforce. If implemented, could an employer not rephrase the question: "How much would you like to get paid?" and still get away with the same discrimination?

Is the final solution here a race to the bottom to normalize wages to prevent perceived discrimination based on non-quantifiable metrics?

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#40

Post by czep » Sun, Jan 22, 2017, 12:03 AM UTC

winter_blue wrote: post #12

_m8fo wrote: post #3

A society truly run by the people, ala individuals, would have banned this long ago. Just think about it: for an average person, what benefit do they receive by allowing employers to ask about past or current salary information? None. Wouldn't be surprised if there have been measures to ban this that were ultimately struck down by business people. The less information that's shared with employers, the more employers…

> A society truly run by the people, ala individuals, would have banned this I'm libertarian-leaning, and statements like these bother me deeply. If I'm an employer, why ban me from asking some question to a prospective employee? It's a restriction on the employer's freedom. The job applicant has a right to decline to answer my question (and I have a right to decline to offer a job). Regulating what questions I can a…

> If I'm an employer, why ban me from asking some question to a prospective employee? It's a restriction on the employer's freedom.

Please see ch4s3's excellent itemized response to an earlier thread for a concise summary of the reasons why this can't be framed simply as an issue of free speech.

The key point is the power differential. While you may be lucky enough to be highly skilled and have enough cultural capital to refuse intrusive questions like this and still find suitable employment on your own terms, many people in our society simply are not in that position. Allowing large powerful corporations to insist that prospective employees disclose their earnings history will simply place downward pressure on wages.

I sympathize with the sentiment, and it is always important to question any limits on speech. But once you factor in the issue of power, pure libertarian ideals will cause greater exploitation of those who have less power to begin with.