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Future Economy (2010) [video]

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Re: Future Economy (2010) [video]

#31

Post by CuriouslyC »

flareback wrote: post #4

It's a nice theory but doesn't solve the problem of supply and demand. If there are 7 billion people on earth that all want a widget, how does this economic philosophy handle the fact that the manufacturing capability can only produce enough widgets for 1 billion people. Who decides which billion people get the widget?

The truth is, we have the means now to provide food, medicine and power to the entire world easily. People actually need those things. People don't need widgets, and they've lived meaningful lives for millenia without them. It's only through the deceit of advertising that you think they are necessary. They're nice, but you adapt fairly quickly to life without them.

Re: Future Economy (2010) [video]

#32

Post by blakeyrat »

hacker_9 wrote: post #28
blakeyrat wrote: post #6

Ok; I want to improve myself by moving into a big house on the shore of Lake Washington. Oh. It takes money to do that? Well shoot. EDIT: to actually respond to the video clip, it's kind of surprising how interesting Star Trek got when they threw out some of Roddenberry's ideas during the Deep Space 9 era. The Starfleet people co-existed with the Ferengi and Bajorans who didn't have post-scarcity economies. The Bajor…

I don't think anyone is saying you suddenly don't need money, because in our current society you absolutely do. But it is possible to imagine one without it, once we get over a certain threshold of technology.

What threshold is going to make prime real estate lots around Lake Washington not scarce?

Asking seriously. Because I have a lot of imagination and I can't come up with anything. Except perhaps we all plug into VR 24/7 like The Matrix. But even in my fake Matrix VR house, I'd envy the guy with the real thing.

Re: Future Economy (2010) [video]

#33

Post by hacker_9 »

blakeyrat wrote: post #30
hacker_9 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would think that in such a society, people would upload blueprints for how to create things, which you could then send to your local manufacturing plant to get built. Some sort of advanced 3d printer could even see these sorts of things widespread. Additionally it would be 100% recyclable, with the idea that you would 'give back to the earth' when you were done with it (materialism would be a thing of the past).

Ok I want lake-front property with a view of Mount Rainier. What address do I send my blueprint to? Oh wait. I'll never understand why people who promote this "magical robots solve everything" view ignore the simple examples that robots, no matter how sophisticated, cannot fix. For example, scarcity of prime real estate.

One of the main problems with housing is it is stuck in place, which gives rise to lots of problems:

1. you have to build round existing structures

2. if the sea level rises, there is nothing you can do

3. small roads can't be widened to accommodate heavier traffic and so on.

In the future the concept of a fixed house would be bizarre, with everything being able to be made portable. It would be normal to have giant shifts in house placement and rewiring of pipes and electricity via AI bots, in order to accommodate change.

Re: Future Economy (2010) [video]

#35

Post by canadian_voter »

blakeyrat wrote: post #29
canadian_voter wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, for a start, it's a post-scarcity society that has the capacity to produce 7 billion widgets if necessary. So that gets you around a lot of problems. You'll notice that the crew quarters in the show are decorated in a minimalist style. The only objects people keep are the ones that are important to them. Tools, games, gifts can be conjured as needed and recycled when you're done with them. Scarce resources do e…

A post-scarcity economy is never going to be able to create more lake-front properties or more seats at the top pop star's front-row. (Although I suppose you could argue: VR. But I doubt people even 100 years from now will agree VR is just as good as the real thing.) When you think about it, there's a lot of stuff that'll still be scarce even when we have magic robots that can build everything instantly.

Not everyone can get what they want, but certainly everyone gets what they need. Everyone living in mansions? Nope. But is anybody homeless? Nope. It's a trade-off.

Many sought-after things are scarce. Starship commissions are scarce. They require hard work and are assigned based on merit. Not just anyone gets the opportunity to explore the edge of space; it takes dedication and sacrifice.

The show is certainly influence by the philosophy of Stoicism[0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism

Re: Future Economy (2010) [video]

#36

Post by UK-AL »

CuriouslyC wrote: post #31
flareback wrote: post #4

It's a nice theory but doesn't solve the problem of supply and demand. If there are 7 billion people on earth that all want a widget, how does this economic philosophy handle the fact that the manufacturing capability can only produce enough widgets for 1 billion people. Who decides which billion people get the widget?

The truth is, we have the means now to provide food, medicine and power to the entire world easily. People actually need those things. People don't need widgets, and they've lived meaningful lives for millenia without them. It's only through the deceit of advertising that you think they are necessary. They're nice, but you adapt fairly quickly to life without them.

Widget could mean anything. So yes people need widgets. It could be a capital good used for farming.

Re: Future Economy (2010) [video]

#38

Post by canadian_voter »

blakeyrat wrote: post #32
hacker_9 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone is saying you suddenly don't need money, because in our current society you absolutely do. But it is possible to imagine one without it, once we get over a certain threshold of technology.

What threshold is going to make prime real estate lots around Lake Washington not scarce? Asking seriously. Because I have a lot of imagination and I can't come up with anything. Except perhaps we all plug into VR 24/7 like The Matrix. But even in my fake Matrix VR house, I'd envy the guy with the real thing.

> What threshold is going to make prime real estate lots around Lake Washington not scarce?

Warp drive? A thousand habitable planets that make Earth look like dusty, irradiated backwater? An vast frontier to explore, filled with endless new challenges and experiences?

Re: Future Economy (2010) [video]

#39

Post by UK-AL »

aiNohY6g wrote: post #26
flareback wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

exactly. Money helps solve this problem.

This problem = boundless desires. Money is just some kind of palliative care, not a cure.

Money easily allows you trade-off various needs and desires, and focus on the ones you really want.
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