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How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

nytimes.com

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Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#31

Post by muddyrivers »

intralizee wrote: post #6
siculars wrote: post #3

Beyond iPhone in China, I have a larger question. Let's say I were building product in the US with child labor in unsafe conditions not adhering to US laws and regulations. Would I be allowed to sell that product in the US? Probably not. If I were doing similarly around the world then seeking to sell that product in the US, it happens to be the case that I could. Why is that the case? Why is it that product built in…

I believe one of Apple's higher ups has talked about child labor before. I'm not sure if it was Steve or Tim but the convo was that its impossible to handle without hurting the communities because the norm is child labor over there. So the conditions for the children are worse if they have no labor. It's really complicated and not something that you can judge from an arm chair position, you have to go over there and…

I understand the cruelty and inhuman treatment sides of child labor. But it is not black and white. Context is important, if not crucial.

Use my own case as example. My family suffered financial hardship due to some misfortune when I was 15. I really wanted to work to help my mother. There were rarely part-time jobs in my hometown in China, then. I could quit my study and try to find a full-time job, which I gave serious thoughts. I knew several people who joined workforce around that age, either due to family financial situation like mine, or they thought they had no future in school (it was already very competitive then) and it was better to work early and accumulate working experience. In this sense, they were "child" labors. But they chose to. They were not mistreated because they were under aged. In my view, they made rational decisions to join the workforce.

One of them, a classmate's brother, returned to school after working for 3 years, when their family financial turned around.

Fortunately, our family decided to open a small business. I tried to get as much time as I could to work there to help, while study hard so that I could go to the best colleges. For two years, I didn't have much time to hang out with friends. So I was a part-time "child" labor. But it was my decision. Nobody forced me. I don't regret it a bit.

Let's face the reality. There are many kids who are just not interested in school and are not good at it. There are two options. They can either hang around and be cool, which is a good situation, considering kids of that age tend to get into troubles if their minds are not occupied. Or they can get a job, learn something from the job, develop good work ethics, etc. What do you think is the better option?

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#32

Post by dforrestwilson1 »

muddyrivers wrote: post #31
intralizee wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe one of Apple's higher ups has talked about child labor before. I'm not sure if it was Steve or Tim but the convo was that its impossible to handle without hurting the communities because the norm is child labor over there. So the conditions for the children are worse if they have no labor. It's really complicated and not something that you can judge from an arm chair position, you have to go over there and…

I understand the cruelty and inhuman treatment sides of child labor. But it is not black and white. Context is important, if not crucial. Use my own case as example. My family suffered financial hardship due to some misfortune when I was 15. I really wanted to work to help my mother. There were rarely part-time jobs in my hometown in China, then. I could quit my study and try to find a full-time job, which I gave ser…

Interesting. Perhaps we should focus more on whether the labor is safe and meets reasonable time requirements than to arbitrarily impose an age cutoff.

I agree with you that attending school is not always the same as learning. Before recent western history many children became apprentices in valuable trade skills which often paid well. Maybe we should start looking at such options again.

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#33

Post by user837387 »

jayd16 wrote: post #22
intralizee wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe one of Apple's higher ups has talked about child labor before. I'm not sure if it was Steve or Tim but the convo was that its impossible to handle without hurting the communities because the norm is child labor over there. So the conditions for the children are worse if they have no labor. It's really complicated and not something that you can judge from an arm chair position, you have to go over there and…

You could have made the same argument for child labor before the laws were enacted. Same for slavery. Argument ad antiquitatem is a fallacy.

Well, I believe that the best thing is to phase things out rather than go cold turkey. Otherwise you will get a backlash like the civil war that happened here in the USA.

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#35

Post by a3n »

siculars wrote: post #3

Beyond iPhone in China, I have a larger question. Let's say I were building product in the US with child labor in unsafe conditions not adhering to US laws and regulations. Would I be allowed to sell that product in the US? Probably not. If I were doing similarly around the world then seeking to sell that product in the US, it happens to be the case that I could. Why is that the case? Why is it that product built in…

But Apple, or any other similar multinational, claims no responsibility for any abuse of workers or economic laws, because it's not them it's Foxconn. The same as their explicit statements in the article, and the article's emphasis, that all these dealings are with partner companies. It allows Apple et. al to stay at least one remove from abuse, bribery, corruption, pollution, etc.

It's the same when companies hire contracting agencies to run their warehouse operations. It's not Amazon's policies, it's the staffing/contracting/warehousing agency, who run operations according to Amazon's rules and just get it done, however they will. "Now be sure you don't abuse your workers while keeping to schedule and standards, wink wink."

Or when ag companies buy tomatoes, for example, from Mexico, where the tomatoes are grown in healthier conditions than the workers live. Occasionally the abuse of these ag workers will surface, and companies like Walmart will point to yet other third party companies that they outsource compliance and certification to. "Our compliance partner has made a complaint to our ag partners, and it's all good."

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#36

Post by maverick_iceman »

ue_ wrote: post #26
muninn_ wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for posting this. It's incredibly Euro-centric to sit here and complain about the perceived child/human rights abuses that happen in China when those very exact things are what industrialized Europe. I really wish we would all just spend more time focusing on our countries and improving our quality of life through trade and the free exchange of ideas. Other countries don't have to listen to our lessons or advi…

>It's incredibly Euro-centric to sit here and complain about the perceived child/human rights abuses that happen in China when those very exact things are what industrialized Europe. It's also incredibly Euro-centric to be thinking that other countries ought to be following the path Europe and the US took to capitalism, and then to say that these countries should be implementing it in such a way that there's the same…

>It's also incredibly Euro-centric to be thinking that other countries ought to be following the path Europe and the US took to capitalism

Other countries like Soviet Union or Maoist China have tried other paths with not exactly stellar results.

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#37

Post by maverick_iceman »

Alex3917 wrote: post #16
berntb wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article by Krugman changed my world view: http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_dismal_science/19... It is almost 20 years old and notes that industrialization and modernization is a process. It doesn't really work for a country to get rich without climbing it [edit: except free money, like with oil], including simple jobs in the beginning -- and now China is doing it. In my book, it is good for humanity wi…

> It doesn't really work for a country to get rich without climbing it Bali went straight from having an agrarian economy to a service-based economy without ever going through an industrial period. It can happen given the right conditions, but it isn't common.

Is a small touristy island comparable to a country like China?

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#39

Post by AJ007 »

berntb wrote: post #8
ue_ wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that's capitalism in today's world. It's the "free market" at work. I don't think the focus should be on preventing people from using "bad labour" but rather on making it so that there would be no reason to use "bad labour". As much as people on HN especially would be so critical of Socialism, they often shy away from these topics - beacuse they are uncomfortable to think about. The fact of the matter is that…

This article by Krugman changed my world view: http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_dismal_science/19... It is almost 20 years old and notes that industrialization and modernization is a process. It doesn't really work for a country to get rich without climbing it [edit: except free money, like with oil], including simple jobs in the beginning -- and now China is doing it. In my book, it is good for humanity wi…

I would seriously question the long term stability of the countries who have been on the receiving end of "free money" - whatever the natural resource is.

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#40

Post by edge17 »

muddyrivers wrote: post #31
intralizee wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe one of Apple's higher ups has talked about child labor before. I'm not sure if it was Steve or Tim but the convo was that its impossible to handle without hurting the communities because the norm is child labor over there. So the conditions for the children are worse if they have no labor. It's really complicated and not something that you can judge from an arm chair position, you have to go over there and…

I understand the cruelty and inhuman treatment sides of child labor. But it is not black and white. Context is important, if not crucial. Use my own case as example. My family suffered financial hardship due to some misfortune when I was 15. I really wanted to work to help my mother. There were rarely part-time jobs in my hometown in China, then. I could quit my study and try to find a full-time job, which I gave ser…

To add to this, no on will tell you they are for child labor, but if you're going to try to eliminate it you have to provide alternatives. In the US we have free public education available to all children by law; other countries can't provide that with the resources available. Having a large unemployed population leads to other negative societal outcomes (crime, violence, etc). Basically, you can't just eliminate child labor without providing alternatives or incentives.
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