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Amazon refuses to let police access US murder suspect’s Echo recordings

theguardian.com

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Re: Amazon refuses to let police access US murder suspect’s Echo recordings

#31

Post by fixermark »

When Eric Schmidt said "If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place," this is pretty much what he was talking about.

We live in a society where passive, ubiquitous, voluntarily-accepted monitoring is becoming the norm because of the vast convenience it affords the users. The flip-side of that coin is of course breaks in your regular pattern of behavior are going to show up in the data trail.

Rather than blame the data trail, maybe we can just all agree to a societal understanding that if you're going to take up murder as a hobby, it might be somewhat incompatible with your other cloud-based ubiquitous-computing hobbies?

Re: Amazon refuses to let police access US murder suspect’s Echo recordings

#32

Post by fixermark »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #26
Hondor wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it a good thing to record data that helps solve a murder? The police are still getting it with a warrant and presumably from physical access to the device, so it's not the same worry as bulk monitoring.

its a fine line. There is a great fear of false positives from such inference. Let us imagine for a second that there is a legitimate reason for that water use that he doesn't wish to disclose because it would incriminate him for something else? Hypothetically speaking if you were doing some grey-hat, "illegal" probing/hack at the time of a murder the police question you about; admitting to your actual activity could…

"A legitimate reason for that water use that he doesn't wish to disclose because it would incriminate him for something else" is an odd definition of "legitimate." ;)

Re: Amazon refuses to let police access US murder suspect’s Echo recordings

#33

Post by FroshKiller »

zubspace wrote: post #22
FroshKiller wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A warrant is not the same as a subpoena. But look, "the innocent have nothing to hide" is an insidious and wrong idea. If people and corporations don't assert their rights against the will of the state, they erode the foundation of our shared liberties.

I'm not a lawyer, so excuse me if I'm asking trivial things: To obtain a search warrant or arrest warrant, the law enforcement officer must demonstrate probable cause that a search or seizure is justified. An authority, usually a magistrate, will consider the totality of circumstances and determine whether to issue the warrant. [1] I agree to your statement, if there is no search warrant. But in this case an authorit…

I'm not a lawyer, either. But I don't think it's the case that any warrant can just be refused, more that the warrant itself can be challenged based on a lot of factors, like the burden placed on a company to deliver some evidence.

Re: Amazon refuses to let police access US murder suspect’s Echo recordings

#34

Post by YCode »

thrillgore wrote: post #4

First thought that comes to mind is: If Amazon lets the police access the Echo it would prove they're constantly listening, even if the device is in "Mute" mode Which is really the main reason why I have avoided these smart speakers. Encrypt them all you want. Send a NSL and all the sudden you've made wiretapping that easier. And that would be very bad for business.

I think the bottom line is Amazon thinks that "Amazon refuses to hand your data over" sounds better than "Amazon Echo data used against man in murder trial".

The latter is likely to deter future purchases and cause many to toss their holiday Alexa gift in a drawer.

More importantly, their lawyers think they can get away with refusing the search warrant as too broad or claiming it sets a precedent of invading privacy.

Re: Amazon refuses to let police access US murder suspect’s Echo recordings

#35

Post by [deleted] »

smileysteve wrote: post #16
zubspace wrote: post #11

How can they refuse to provide the recordings in case of a warrant? It makes no sense. They even acknowledge that the device is not always-on and therefore probably not useful. Because of bad publicity? If the police stands in front of my house with a warrant to search my belongings, can I refuse that? Does it make sense if I have nothing to hide? The recordings of the water meter is more interesting and the possible…

> If the police stands in front of my house with a warrant to search my belongings, can I refuse that? Yes, if your legal team denies it as overly broad. They can also file an injunction. This is why you call a lawyer as soon as the police arrive w/ a warrant or ask you questions. > Does it make sense if I have nothing to hide? Yes. Because you value your privacy of hobbies and speech. > I have nothing to hide. The a…

[deleted]

Re: Amazon refuses to let police access US murder suspect’s Echo recordings

#36

Post by zubspace »

smileysteve wrote: post #16
zubspace wrote: post #11

How can they refuse to provide the recordings in case of a warrant? It makes no sense. They even acknowledge that the device is not always-on and therefore probably not useful. Because of bad publicity? If the police stands in front of my house with a warrant to search my belongings, can I refuse that? Does it make sense if I have nothing to hide? The recordings of the water meter is more interesting and the possible…

> If the police stands in front of my house with a warrant to search my belongings, can I refuse that? Yes, if your legal team denies it as overly broad. They can also file an injunction. This is why you call a lawyer as soon as the police arrive w/ a warrant or ask you questions. > Does it make sense if I have nothing to hide? Yes. Because you value your privacy of hobbies and speech. > I have nothing to hide. The a…

Yes, if your legal team denies it as overly broad.

So this only applies to businesses and wealthy individuals? If this is the case, we already lost the fight for equal rights.

Yes. Because you value your privacy of hobbies and speech.

This is a murder case. How could someone value their hobbies and freedom above the jurisdictional process?

Not a great example of having nothing to hide, but a great example of a broad search that found an entirely different crime.

They do not have to fish for a crime. The crime is given, but the circumstances are probably not.

I just have the feeling, that refusing to provide the data to solve cases like this will probably hurt everyone more in the long run. If the police cannot get the data this way, they will probably try another way or change the law.

Re: Amazon refuses to let police access US murder suspect’s Echo recordings

#37

Post by scarygliders »

Hondor wrote: post #13
superkuh wrote: post #10

More importantly, the headline should read: "Police use high time resolution data from modern water meter against man charged with murder." Basically this Abstruse Goose comic, http://abstrusegoose.com/553 , about the dangers of utility data logging have come true. The greater the time resolution of such things the more can be inferred. Such high resolution is completely uneeded and complex in order to just charge fo…

Isn't it a good thing to record data that helps solve a murder? The police are still getting it with a warrant and presumably from physical access to the device, so it's not the same worry as bulk monitoring.

There has to be a line drawn somewhere, lest we end up with putting GPS trackers and video recording devices on each and every person.

That's obviously a slippery-slope argument, but it's not outwith the realms of possibility that if I can think of doing something like that, politicians (especially those!) can think of it as well.

Re: Amazon refuses to let police access US murder suspect’s Echo recordings

#38

Post by misja111 »

I'm wondering, what if the suspect agreed with the request of the police to check the Echo recordings? Suppose the suspect is innocent and thinks that allowing access to the Echo recordings can only make his case stronger.

Would Amazon then still refuse access?

Re: Amazon refuses to let police access US murder suspect’s Echo recordings

#39

Post by wheelerwj »

fixermark wrote: post #31

When Eric Schmidt said "If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place," this is pretty much what he was talking about. We live in a society where passive, ubiquitous, voluntarily-accepted monitoring is becoming the norm because of the vast convenience it affords the users. The flip-side of that coin is of course breaks in your regular pattern of behavior…

This is the exact thing we have to fight against because it leads to class based systems. Those who use cloud computing are innocent and those who don't are presumably hiding something.

This is the why we have constitutional rights, to avoid such broad generalizations. Everyone has the right to privacy, regardless of what utilities or Hobbies they have.

Re: Amazon refuses to let police access US murder suspect’s Echo recordings

#40

Post by falcolas »

gm-conspiracy wrote: post #14
HugoDaniel wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nevermind your smartphone

...or you live somewhere with glass windows. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_microphone

Laser microphones at least require you to be targeted prior to the warrant, and typically require someone on the other end. They can't retroactively request data from a laser microphone attached to most US households.
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