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GNU Hurd 0.9, GNU Mach 1.8, GNU MIG 1.8 Released

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Re: GNU Hurd 0.9, GNU Mach 1.8, GNU MIG 1.8 Released

#31

Post by hyperpape »

lobster_johnson wrote: post #22
gravypod wrote: post #21

I know this is a bit off topic but is there anything to read about how to implement a microkernel? Like a real booting system for x86.

Andrew Tannenbaum's Minix [1] was pretty much made for this purpose. The current version is no longer a "teaching OS", but there is a lot of documentation on earlier versions around, including the original 1987 book [2] that Tannenbaum wrote on operating systems (which comes with the Minix source code). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MINIX [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_Systems:_Design_an...

Minix3 is designed to be usable as a real system, but the core of it is still only supposed to be 6kLOC.

Re: GNU Hurd 0.9, GNU Mach 1.8, GNU MIG 1.8 Released

#32

Post by gravypod »

lobster_johnson wrote: post #22
gravypod wrote: post #21

I know this is a bit off topic but is there anything to read about how to implement a microkernel? Like a real booting system for x86.

Andrew Tannenbaum's Minix [1] was pretty much made for this purpose. The current version is no longer a "teaching OS", but there is a lot of documentation on earlier versions around, including the original 1987 book [2] that Tannenbaum wrote on operating systems (which comes with the Minix source code). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MINIX [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_Systems:_Design_an...

I have the book but I haven't finished it yet. Will I come out having written a full kernel by the time I'm done?

Re: GNU Hurd 0.9, GNU Mach 1.8, GNU MIG 1.8 Released

#33

Post by BuuQu9hu »

CalChris wrote: post #20
Light2Yellow wrote: post #4

The changelog is so small... Can someone explain why do we need this? Why would we want to use it?

I agree. Given the massive success of BSD opensource L4, I think the only reason for Hurd's continued claim is its association with Stallman. Are there any technical merits here?

The translators feature is pretty awesome.

Re: GNU Hurd 0.9, GNU Mach 1.8, GNU MIG 1.8 Released

#34

Post by lobster_johnson »

gravypod wrote: post #32
lobster_johnson wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Andrew Tannenbaum's Minix [1] was pretty much made for this purpose. The current version is no longer a "teaching OS", but there is a lot of documentation on earlier versions around, including the original 1987 book [2] that Tannenbaum wrote on operating systems (which comes with the Minix source code). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MINIX [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_Systems:_Design_an...

I have the book but I haven't finished it yet. Will I come out having written a full kernel by the time I'm done?

No, it's not a tutorial, which I don't think would make sense. Rather, it's a walk through the design and implementation of Minix. Minix is tiny, so you can actually follow along. In theory, by the time you're done you'll not just know Minix, but you'd be able to write your own kernel if you wanted to.

Re: GNU Hurd 0.9, GNU Mach 1.8, GNU MIG 1.8 Released

#35

Post by djsumdog »

sien wrote: post #24
qwertyuiop924 wrote: post #19

It's kind of unbelievable that HURD is still going. It's been the butt of many a joke in the Unix world: our equivalent of Duke Nukem Forever, or Mordeth. I can't admire their release schedule, but you're got to admire their persistance. One day, it might just be ready...

Hopefully it will run Project Xanadu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Xanadu (check the start date and first working version)

Huh...now I get the reference when playing Kentucky Route Zero

Re: GNU Hurd 0.9, GNU Mach 1.8, GNU MIG 1.8 Released

#37

Post by lokedhs »

I remember installing Hurd on actual hardware back in 1996[1] and I as far as I can recall, it was quite interesting to use.

Since then, on regular intervals[2] I've attempted to install the most recent version, but I have failed every single time[3].

I'm also noting that Hurd is still only 32-bit.

Is there actually a plan to make this into a system that can actually be used? Exactly what is it about the Hurd project that makes it take so long to finish? There have been several examples of single developers creating a usable[4] operating system in the span of a couple years.

[1] Yes, 20 years ago

[2] Perhaps once every one or two years

[3] Running a preconfigured VM image doesn't count

[4] More usable than Hurd is today

Re: GNU Hurd 0.9, GNU Mach 1.8, GNU MIG 1.8 Released

#38

Post by flukus »

lokedhs wrote: post #37

I remember installing Hurd on actual hardware back in 1996[1] and I as far as I can recall, it was quite interesting to use. Since then, on regular intervals[2] I've attempted to install the most recent version, but I have failed every single time[3]. I'm also noting that Hurd is still only 32-bit. Is there actually a plan to make this into a system that can actually be used? Exactly what is it about the Hurd project…

> I'm also noting that Hurd is still only 32-bit.

I wonder if they'll make it to 64-bit before we start upgrading to 128-bit computers?

Re: GNU Hurd 0.9, GNU Mach 1.8, GNU MIG 1.8 Released

#39

Post by nickpsecurity »

qwertyuiop924 wrote: post #19

It's kind of unbelievable that HURD is still going. It's been the butt of many a joke in the Unix world: our equivalent of Duke Nukem Forever, or Mordeth. I can't admire their release schedule, but you're got to admire their persistance. One day, it might just be ready...

That's great. You make an excellent comparison between its promises vs success vs DNF's. disordinary inadvertently points out that, unlike Hurd, DNF eventually delivered and at least made some money selling 376,300 units. It's kind of a cutdown on DNF to compare it to Hurd which wasn't finished, had little adoption, and sold 0 units. Even MULTICS and SCOMP probably had more adoption in significant use cases despite them practically being case studies on things with low adoption due to expenses or tough tradeoffs.

Meanwhile, Minix 3 and Genode are going strong despite originally being made by only a handful of people for a tiny fraction of the time. Hurd is truly a dead end in marketing if the likes of DNF surpasses it in deliverables and adoption.

Re: GNU Hurd 0.9, GNU Mach 1.8, GNU MIG 1.8 Released

#40

Post by disordinary »

lokedhs wrote: post #37

I remember installing Hurd on actual hardware back in 1996[1] and I as far as I can recall, it was quite interesting to use. Since then, on regular intervals[2] I've attempted to install the most recent version, but I have failed every single time[3]. I'm also noting that Hurd is still only 32-bit. Is there actually a plan to make this into a system that can actually be used? Exactly what is it about the Hurd project…

Basically Linux and then BSD took all the wind out of Hurds sails. A lot of that was timing, and also because those projects were much more attractive to big business who put a tremendous amount of development resources behind them.

As far as I know QNX is the only usable OS based on a microkernel.

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