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Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife

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Re: Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife

#31

Post by telemachos »

pohl wrote: post #2

I wish I knew why the concept of hypocrisy is so difficult to grasp that people are prone to apply it incorrectly. Maybe people just don't understand when someone is making a moral statement, and when someone isn't. The claim here appears to be that since Apple ships Windows apps that don't use that platform to its fullest, Jobs cannot claim that least-common-denominator middleware is unhealthy for a platform. That m…

You seem to believe that 'hypocrisy' (and related words, I assume) can only apply to moral claims.

That isn't true to the best of my knowledge, and a check of a handful of good dictionaries (online and paper) confirms this.

Here's one link, for example: http://dictionaries.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=hypocrisy*1...

Although the charge of hypocrisy often comes up in moral contexts, that isn't a requirement.

Re: Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife

#32

Post by CoryMathews »

tlrobinson wrote: post #13

iTunes sucking on Windows doesn't make them hypocrites, it helps prove their point. I'm sure Apple would rather not have to release a Windows version of iTunes, but it's necessary to sell more iPods.

iTunes sucks on windows because it does not take advantage of windows. If windows was the iPhone and iTunes was an app it would have been banned a long time ago.

Re: Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife

#33

Post by telemachos »

pohl wrote: post #23
acg wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hypocrisy is not reserved for moral claims. Jobs could be making a virtue out of openness (I'm not sure he is) or saying one thing in public and acting differently in private. Both of which, without moral claims, could cause him to be a hypocrite. Jobs could be called a hypocrite in two different senses depending on how cynical you are.

I'll concede that the claim does not need to be moral, but it should, at least, be a claim about what ought to be or what one ought to do. It's not enough, for example, for me to wax eloquent about how much I love the color green while I'm wearing a purple shirt. It is possible, after all, to love both open models and closed models in different contexts.

I'll concede that the claim does not need to be moral, but it should, at least, be a claim about what ought to be or what one ought to do.

But the author meets this standard. For example, he points out that Jobs says, in effect, that Adobe should have moved their Carbon apps to Cocoa, even though Apple hasn't done so in some cases.

Re: Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife

#34

Post by CoryMathews »

aneth wrote: post #7

The only people I know defending Adobe and Flash are Flash developers and Adobe itself. Everybody else tolerates Flash begrudgingly. I miss a few flash games here and there on my iPhone. Beyond that, good riddance. Flash is the RealPlayer of the decade.

I personally hate developing in flash and I hate flash websites.

However I enjoy flash videos and flash games. I don't want someone telling me I can no longer play these games.

Re: Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife

#35

Post by randallsquared »

Nwallins wrote: post #29
pohl wrote: post #2

I wish I knew why the concept of hypocrisy is so difficult to grasp that people are prone to apply it incorrectly. Maybe people just don't understand when someone is making a moral statement, and when someone isn't. The claim here appears to be that since Apple ships Windows apps that don't use that platform to its fullest, Jobs cannot claim that least-common-denominator middleware is unhealthy for a platform. That m…

Is it not hypocritical to hold others to higher standards than one demonstrates? I see a normative claim: Software systems should do X, Y, and Z Software systems that do not meet the norm are penalized or disallowed by Apple's platform(s). However, Apple's own software does not meet this norm either, even on Apple's own platform. It sure seems like hypocrisy to me, even if it is defensible.

Is it not hypocritical to hold others to higher standards than one demonstrates?

I would say it's hypocritical to hold those of a class including yourself to standards which you do not meet. That is, it's not hypocritical (however blameworthy it may or may not be) to say, "Everyone but me should do X, while I should do Y," but it is to say "Everyone should do X" while actually doing Y.

You can see Jobs trying to avoid hypocrisy in the original post by asserting that web standards should be open, while other software systems have no such obligation.

Re: Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife

#36

Post by pohl »

cageface wrote: post #27
_pius wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I knew why the concept of hypocrisy is so difficult to grasp that people are prone to apply it incorrectly. Maybe people just don't understand when someone is making a moral statement, and when someone isn't. Indeed, "tu quoque" fail abounds. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

Merriam Webster defines hypocrisy thus: "feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion" I'd say Apple's lambasting of Adobe for failing to provide open & reliable cross-platform software fits the bill perfectly. Steve's critique of Flash can be both accurate and hypocritical at the same time.

Apple's lambasting of Adobe for failing to provide open & reliable cross-platform software

I think a quotation to support your interpretation above would be helpful, because it's not at all what I read in "Thoughts on Flash" today.

That is, I did not get the impression that Apple thought Adobe ought to deliver anything open. They were merely pointing out that it is not — and that this does not meet Apple's vision for what they want to support within Mobile Safari.

In fact, he went so far as to concede that "Apple has many proprietary products too."

Re: Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife

#37

Post by [deleted] »

Nwallins wrote: post #29
pohl wrote: post #2

I wish I knew why the concept of hypocrisy is so difficult to grasp that people are prone to apply it incorrectly. Maybe people just don't understand when someone is making a moral statement, and when someone isn't. The claim here appears to be that since Apple ships Windows apps that don't use that platform to its fullest, Jobs cannot claim that least-common-denominator middleware is unhealthy for a platform. That m…

Is it not hypocritical to hold others to higher standards than one demonstrates? I see a normative claim: Software systems should do X, Y, and Z Software systems that do not meet the norm are penalized or disallowed by Apple's platform(s). However, Apple's own software does not meet this norm either, even on Apple's own platform. It sure seems like hypocrisy to me, even if it is defensible.

[deleted]

Re: Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife

#38

Post by tomlin »

mattmiller wrote: post #17

I don't understand the big deal. Do people really love developing in flash that much? Is the flash development community really this big? I have a feeling that a lot of people are jumping on the bandwagon because it gets attention. It is really weird, before this everyone hated flash. It was pretty well accepted as a necessary evil that we all wished we could do without (at least that is the vibe I got). We are now a…

Windows users don't hate Flash nearly as much as OSX users. Performance plays a role, no doubt.

Re: Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife

#39

Post by jaimzob »

What happened to OSNews? I remember it being a pretty good tech news site a while back but now it seems that every day there's another over-written, hyper-ventilating, peanut-gallery-baiting "opinion piece" like this. Good for selling ad impressions I guess.

Re: Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife

#40

Post by pohl »

telemachos wrote: post #33
pohl wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll concede that the claim does not need to be moral, but it should, at least, be a claim about what ought to be or what one ought to do. It's not enough, for example, for me to wax eloquent about how much I love the color green while I'm wearing a purple shirt. It is possible, after all, to love both open models and closed models in different contexts.

I'll concede that the claim does not need to be moral, but it should, at least, be a claim about what ought to be or what one ought to do. But the author meets this standard. For example, he points out that Jobs says, in effect, that Adobe should have moved their Carbon apps to Cocoa, even though Apple hasn't done so in some cases.

Note that you have to use the weasel-phrase "in effect" to put words in the mouth of Jobs and claim that "the author meets this standard". If you're so certain he's met the standard, provide an actual quotation rather than a straw man.

Jobs made no such statement. Rather, he observed that Adobe was very slow in passing Apple's platform improvements on to its customers, and the implication here is that it would be unwise for Apple to allow middleware to put Apple in a position where Adobe could do the same thing again for thousands of apps.

But he made no claim about what Adobe ought to have done, or should have done. Rather, he gave a reason for the policy decisions that Apple has made.

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