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Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

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Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#31

Post by Qz »

kolektiv wrote: post #27
Qz wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, legitimate competition from suppliers would drive down costs, forcing high risk/high reward illegal operations from other countries out of the market. How can a Mexican drug cartel compete against grand-ma and her backyard? Secondly, what is the violent side of drug activitey? Again my understanding is that it's mostly revolved around protecting/hiding illegal production, and moving the drugs to a dealer. If y…

Well, that's perhaps true but the broader point still stands. Legalised drugs companies don't tend to have the same violent tendencies. Glaxo-Smithkline don't tend to have violent gun battles with Bayer over who gets to supply prescription meds to a 'hood. Also, although that may be the violence most prominent in the US, there's plenty of police/army vs. drug cartel violent crime in other countries. edit: typo.

I don't disagree that legalization would reduce violence. Part of it probably comes from the fact that since what they're doing (on a large scale) is massively illegal, so using violence to compete isn't much of a leap.

Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#32

Post by jbooth »

b-man wrote: post #28
Qz wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you learn how many of the women in prostitution are forced into that work by sex traffickers or sheer poverty, it's not hard to understand. The sex 'seller' often isn't the one who gets the money.

Not really related to the article, but do you have any data on forced prostitution? It is a common argument, and I don't deny the existence of it, but I never saw any real research on the fact, besides watching this documentary[1], which did not presented much research on the subject in a global basis. [1] http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/slaves/

Depends on your definition of "forced", it could run from literal sex slave through "hooked on drugs and unable to fend for self so stuck with pimp" to just plain "has to feed self and has no other options".

I'd say all of those are forced to some degree.

Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#33

Post by GiraffeNecktie »

epochwolf wrote: post #17
GiraffeNecktie wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I upvoted the comment. This is a "news" site, not a "recycled story" site. There's enough new stuff coming through the firehose that we don't need to start reposting the Internet from a year ago.

Just because something is old doesn't mean it isn't relevant or interesting.

Just because it was relevant and interesting a year ago - or ten years ago - doesn't mean you should be posting and reposting and reposting it on a "news" site. Maybe there should be a golden oldies site where people can post all the "but gee it's new to me" stuff.

Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#34

Post by yummyfajitas »

jbooth wrote: post #32
b-man wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really related to the article, but do you have any data on forced prostitution? It is a common argument, and I don't deny the existence of it, but I never saw any real research on the fact, besides watching this documentary[1], which did not presented much research on the subject in a global basis. [1] http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/slaves/

Depends on your definition of "forced", it could run from literal sex slave through "hooked on drugs and unable to fend for self so stuck with pimp" to just plain "has to feed self and has no other options". I'd say all of those are forced to some degree.

If the customers are helping the prostitute feed herself, how is she a victim and how are they harming her? She would be worse off if not for the voluntary transaction.

In fact, the government is actually harming the hungry prostitute by reducing demand for her services by criminalizing the customers.

Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#35

Post by mey »

protomyth wrote: post #25
mey wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is my understanding on why decriminalization of drugs is beneficial. First, legitimate competition from suppliers would drive down costs, forcing high risk/high reward illegal operations from other countries out of the market. How can a Mexican drug cartel compete against grand-ma and her backyard? Secondly, what is the violent side of drug activitey? Again my understanding is that it's mostly revolved around pr…

Some of the current drugs out there need to stay illegal. Not because they get you high, but because they are toxic. I do believe, if some form of decriminalization happens, we really need to up the penalty for crimes committed while under the influence. Maybe assume premeditation. I should point out I believe the same thing about alcohol. Killing someone while drunk should be considered premeditated.

A lot of things people ingest are toxic, the trick I feel is making that well known and public knowledge, not necessarily illegal. For example, the surgeon generals warning on the pack of a cigarette, or the chemical warnings on a bottle of bleach, I feel are a better way to approach the problem.

Part of my attitude comes from growing up in New Hampshire. For example, if you are a consenting adult, and you are only harming yourself, then that is your prerogative. Why you don't need to wear a seatbelt if you are over 18, or a motorcycle helmet. The risk you are taking on is not against other people, like drunk driving, but mostly only to your own health.

Now an effective part of that comes down to knowledge, but certain ideas can be ingrained in a society over time. Like put on a seatbelt or be thrown through the windshield like a crash test dummy.

Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#36

Post by njharman »

Is anyone else perplexed that the success metric for decriminalization is reduced drug use?

I'd think reduced crime (esp organized), reduced prison populations, savings in prosecuting housing drug non-criminals, job increases from local production/distribution, and/or tax revenue increases would all be more interesting / relevant metrics.

It sounds like Portugal took the path of "it's still illegal and bad, we're just not gonna punish you for it". Which isn't really decriminalization in my book.

Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#37

Post by jbooth »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #30
Qz wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you learn how many of the women in prostitution are forced into that work by sex traffickers or sheer poverty, it's not hard to understand. The sex 'seller' often isn't the one who gets the money.

The law I was questioning assumes every single prostitute is a victim, including the ones who are not enslaved. It also assumes every single drug seller is not a victim, even the ones who are enslaved. If the real issue is enslavement, why not just carve out a general exception in criminal law to acts which you are performing against your will? I.e., if you rob a bank because your wife/children are being held hostage…

I think a good way to look at it is that it's not so much about right and wrong or about who's a victim but about average outcomes.

The average outcome of prosecuting a drug user or prostitute is you spent a bunch of government resources processing, trying and incarcerating the person in order to take someone off the streets who's not actually particularly dangerous.

So, why do it?

Drug dealers on the other hand frequently beef over territory, sell bad product that kills people, get into interesting sideline work, etc. And they're very few in number compared to the users. So as far as bang for the buck, it makes sense to prosecute them. Yes, there are exceptions, but you make policy for the average case and hope that your cops and DAs are smart enough to exercise some judgment when warranted.

Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#38

Post by warfangle »

Qz wrote: post #31
kolektiv wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's perhaps true but the broader point still stands. Legalised drugs companies don't tend to have the same violent tendencies. Glaxo-Smithkline don't tend to have violent gun battles with Bayer over who gets to supply prescription meds to a 'hood. Also, although that may be the violence most prominent in the US, there's plenty of police/army vs. drug cartel violent crime in other countries. edit: typo.

I don't disagree that legalization would reduce violence. Part of it probably comes from the fact that since what they're doing (on a large scale) is massively illegal, so using violence to compete isn't much of a leap.

A huge part of it is by sheer nature of the black market, traditional dispute resolution is out of the question.

You can't go to a lawyer and say, "This dude backed out on his deal, cheating me out of $10,000 of grass."

So the only method left for many grey/black market areas is physical retaliation.

Outlaw a market, and only outlaws (and their own twisted senses of justice and retribution) will thrive in the market.

Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#39

Post by warfangle »

jbooth wrote: post #32
b-man wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really related to the article, but do you have any data on forced prostitution? It is a common argument, and I don't deny the existence of it, but I never saw any real research on the fact, besides watching this documentary[1], which did not presented much research on the subject in a global basis. [1] http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/slaves/

Depends on your definition of "forced", it could run from literal sex slave through "hooked on drugs and unable to fend for self so stuck with pimp" to just plain "has to feed self and has no other options". I'd say all of those are forced to some degree.

And then there's the emotionally abusive / controlling / cult of personality situations where, while the workers are not sex slaves as depicted in cinema (locked up in small dank rooms), they are just as enslaved via cult-like techniques of brainwashing.

Usually that arises after the "has to feed self" situation.

At least, that's what Law & Order SVU has taught me.

Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#40

Post by nerfhammer »

jamesbressi wrote: post #5

Does the findings in this article surprise anyone? No? Good. I'm not a hippy, but let's get over this b.s. "War on Drugs" and begin to use our common sense when dealing with social issues and impeding on natural rights.

I would take the article a lot more seriously if it wasn't based entirely on a study by the Cato Institute.
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