Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#31

Post by synchrone » Sun, Oct 30, 2016, 11:06 AM UTC

bizzleDawg wrote: post #19

'eSIM' is on the way to replace sim cards. The biggest challenge of 'downloading a sim card' to a secure enclave on a phone is of course security. The GSMA and members (i.e. telcos) have been working on secure remote provisioning. I think it'll take a while for the technology to make it in to consumer devices, though it's likely to be used in IoT relatively soon. It takes a long time to spec these things up collabora…

Actually there is at least one company already offering Remote-Sim-Provisioning. https://medium.com/@ComfortWay_Glob/cwsim-freedom-of-connect...

They are selling local data-plans abroad without switching the SIM card by implementing RSP. Calls are coming in 2017, also promising a portable phone number later that year.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#32

Post by jacquesm » Sun, Oct 30, 2016, 11:07 AM UTC

uph wrote: post #21

aq3cn wrote: post #4

You know if that happen then flip phone users will have hard time because network will promote only high end selective phones. SIM card gives you freedom of putting it in $25 or $640 phone and it works just fine. People with security, budget and privacy concern go for flip phones. Just like net neutrality, phone neutrality is a good thing. One should never be forced to purchase smart phone if he does not want it. A d…

> People with security, budget and privacy concern go for flip phones. No. That ensures you can't send encrypted messages or do encrypted calls. Also see one of the reasons Signal moved to sending encrypted messages as data and stopped supporting encrypted messages sent as sms. > SMS and MMS are a security disaster. They leak all possible metadata 100% of the time to thousands of cellular carriers worldwide. It's com…

Well, they at least they no longer leak them to the servers of every application provider on their smartphone.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#33

Post by kalleboo » Sun, Oct 30, 2016, 11:07 AM UTC

mherrmann wrote: post #29

JoachimSchipper wrote: post #6

The SIM card is a smart card, i.e. a secure piece of hardware, that protects the telephone network from the subscriber - most importantly, it ensures that the network has someone to bill. In most western countries, SIMs do little else; however, they are full application platforms, allowing stuff like Kenya's mobile payment network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa . For what it's worth, you really don't want to ha…

Doesn't every login form on the web also protect the respective operator from the subscriber? Why can't a "software SIM" simply be a username and a password? My explanation is that it's difficult to change something that literally the entire world uses.

We're moving away from usernames and passwords though, into 2-factor systems such as... smart cards (Chip and PIN). Regressing phones back into usernames and passwords is a clear step backwards in security.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#34

Post by jlgaddis » Sun, Oct 30, 2016, 11:08 AM UTC

As others have pointed out, SIM cards are basically smart cards. There's PKI, private keys, the ability to perform mutual authentication (although that's not usually done, at least in .us), and much more.

Honestly, I wish their use would expand into other areas of our lives -- replacing username and password combinations for various devices (working for an ISP, home routers are one good example).

As much as I'm against the idea of a mandatory "national ID", I'm convinced that it will happen someday (in .us, where I live). When it does, I believe it'll be something similar to US DoD's CAC [1]: a physical identification card that doubles as a smart card. The private keys stored on the card will allow you to prove your identity to your banks/financial institutions, e-mail account (100% encryption of all e-mails? Yes, please!), and so on.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Access_Card

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#35

Post by jacquesm » Sun, Oct 30, 2016, 11:08 AM UTC

mherrmann wrote: post #29

JoachimSchipper wrote: post #6

The SIM card is a smart card, i.e. a secure piece of hardware, that protects the telephone network from the subscriber - most importantly, it ensures that the network has someone to bill. In most western countries, SIMs do little else; however, they are full application platforms, allowing stuff like Kenya's mobile payment network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa . For what it's worth, you really don't want to ha…

Doesn't every login form on the web also protect the respective operator from the subscriber? Why can't a "software SIM" simply be a username and a password? My explanation is that it's difficult to change something that literally the entire world uses.

Who would you want to hold your 'software SIM' username and password? What's to stop someone else from logging in to your account once they have your credentials?

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#36

Post by raverbashing » Sun, Oct 30, 2016, 11:11 AM UTC

> Feels like this is probably the result of telco networks wanting as much friction as possible to change providers

No, it is the opposite.

It is exactly done like this so you only need to get the sim card and not need to have the operator decide for you (of course people shoot themselves in the foot by signing a long term contract while getting a locked mobile phone)

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#37

Post by grymoire1 » Sun, Oct 30, 2016, 11:11 AM UTC

The SIM smartcard is a cryptographic device that prevents people from stealing/copying/hijacking/cloning other phones/accounts/billing/credit/etc.

Each SIM has a unique ID that is used to track/bill/identify your phone.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#38

Post by akytt » Sun, Oct 30, 2016, 11:11 AM UTC

Because of a power struggle between os vendors, hardware makers and telcos. The SIM provides a neutral way for them to coexist. Also, this decouples a lot if certification. A SIM and a phone are easier to work with than a phonesim

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#39

Post by Strom » Sun, Oct 30, 2016, 11:12 AM UTC

JoachimSchipper wrote: post #6

The SIM card is a smart card, i.e. a secure piece of hardware, that protects the telephone network from the subscriber - most importantly, it ensures that the network has someone to bill. In most western countries, SIMs do little else; however, they are full application platforms, allowing stuff like Kenya's mobile payment network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa . For what it's worth, you really don't want to ha…

In Estonia, you can use your SIM to create a government recognizeed digital signature. [1] Thus, you not only identify yourself to the mobile operator, but you can also identify yourself to banks, government services, and more.

[1] https://e-estonia.com/component/mobile-id/

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#40

Post by kalleboo » Sun, Oct 30, 2016, 11:13 AM UTC

The actual reason it's still a thing is because changing how thousands of network operators work in over 200 countries is quite difficult to coordinate. Even Apple tried to push a soft-SIM and couldn't get it going.

But I'm glad for it, because the foresight of the designers of GSM to put your private key in a smartcard has absolutely improved consumer choice worldwide. I can buy an unlocked phone, travel to any country, buy a SIM card at the airport and pop it in my phone and the GSM(/UMTS/LTE) standards say it must work.

A software-based system will quickly devolve into a "oh we haven't approved this phone on our network, sorry we won't activate it" and other anti-consumer activities you saw on the ESN-registration-based US CDMA networks.

Hopefully when the GSMA adds eSIM to the standard, they add protections for consumer choice, but in the current corporate climate I fear they won't.