N.S.A. Contractor Arrested in Possible New Theft of Secrets • Hacker News Board

Re: N.S.A. Contractor Arrested in Possible New Theft of Secrets

#31

Post by micaksica » Wed, Oct 05, 2016, 5:28 PM UTC

vertex-four wrote: post #23

matt_wulfeck wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also wondered about that. Why would you "secretly" arrest anyone? And here I thought a critical component of due process is that we don't detain people without charging them with a crime, which is necessarily an open process. But what do I know? I'm just a schmuck who happens to believe normal people can read and interpret the constitution on their own.

The Constitution is a piece of paper, and might influence certain parts of Government to some degree, the same as any other piece of paper. But the beliefs of the people are what really matters. And if the people don't actually entirely agree with the Constitution to the point that they're willing to fight for it and drag their representatives out of Government over it, it's as useless as any other piece of paper.

+1. Nice philosophies and platitudes are not power, and it does otherwise smart people a disservice to their rationality to confuse the two.

A piece of paper and its surrounding political philosophy may empowering in theory but is decidedly not in practice. At the end of it all, it is the threat of adverse action, hopefully through re-election or worst-case through violence, that keeps power in check. The majority is too unwilling or too ignorant to oust those that are given the power to strictly enforce the philosophy, and thus the Constitution is emasculated.

Re: N.S.A. Contractor Arrested in Possible New Theft of Secrets

#32

Post by redwards510 » Wed, Oct 05, 2016, 5:28 PM UTC

idlewords wrote: post #14

eeZah7Ux wrote: post #5

"New Theft of Secrets", as if whistleblowing was a bad thing. "he stole and disclosed highly classified computer codes developed to hack into the networks of foreign governments" "different in nature from Mr. Snowden’s theft" What's next, NYtimes, calling people "rats" for reporting a homicide?

Stealing source code from the NSA is not whistleblowing.

Depends on what that source code does. What if it overloads electrical systems placed in orphanages in China where they grow hackers and burns down the building with the kids inside?

Re: N.S.A. Contractor Arrested in Possible New Theft of Secrets

#33

Post by jbapple » Wed, Oct 05, 2016, 5:29 PM UTC

dogma1138 wrote: post #26

matt_wulfeck wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also wondered about that. Why would you "secretly" arrest anyone? And here I thought a critical component of due process is that we don't detain people without charging them with a crime, which is necessarily an open process. But what do I know? I'm just a schmuck who happens to believe normal people can read and interpret the constitution on their own.

"Secret" arrests are fairly common, they are often used daily when you need to arrest a large group of people without them scattering. Say you have 5 arrests warrants for members of a gang, you often can't arrest them all the once so here is where the "secret" comes into play when they are arrested and the arrest is maintained confidential for 24-48 hours depending on the jurisdiction. This is done to prevent the res…

This arrest happened in late August, it seems. Has SCOTUS set limits on how long prisoners can be held secretly?

Re: N.S.A. Contractor Arrested in Possible New Theft of Secrets

#34

Post by sandworm101 » Wed, Oct 05, 2016, 5:30 PM UTC

jbapple wrote: post #4

What constitutes a "secret arrest", as mentioned in this article? Jose Padilla was arrested and initially held without notice to his family or attorney. Is that what this arrest is like? What proportion of the arrests in the US are "secret"? When the families of the prisoners are told, are they sometimes bound by court orders not to disclose the arrests?

The procedure involves jailing someone under a false name, at least on the paperwork. It isn't that unusual and is normally used in organized crime cases. The arrest is done under the guise of arresting a "material witness" rather than an accused criminal. Doing this bypasses various protections (lawyers, hearings etc) for a significant period of time. The use of false names is to protect the "witness" from intimidation. The suspect is then re-arrested on criminal charges while in custody once the need to keep him secret is over.

An infamous case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Mayfield

Re: N.S.A. Contractor Arrested in Possible New Theft of Secrets

#35

Post by vertex-four » Wed, Oct 05, 2016, 5:32 PM UTC

lettergram wrote: post #29

vertex-four wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Constitution is a piece of paper, and might influence certain parts of Government to some degree, the same as any other piece of paper. But the beliefs of the people are what really matters. And if the people don't actually entirely agree with the Constitution to the point that they're willing to fight for it and drag their representatives out of Government over it, it's as useless as any other piece of paper.

Have you ever tried to get a group of people to protest anything? Like seriously, the black lives matter are more effective, than people regarding the NSA, privacy, or encryption. Even though some of the stuff we know about the government is WAY scarier.

The issue is more that there's an incredible amount of people who just don't care about the Constitution. Or pretty much anything else that isn't affecting them in a really direct way right that moment in time.

And so, in giving a democratic Government ridiculous amounts of power, we give it power to harm pretty much any minority it chooses, so long as it doesn't piss off too many other people.

Re: N.S.A. Contractor Arrested in Possible New Theft of Secrets

#36

Post by bdavisx » Wed, Oct 05, 2016, 5:35 PM UTC

lettergram wrote: post #29

vertex-four wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Constitution is a piece of paper, and might influence certain parts of Government to some degree, the same as any other piece of paper. But the beliefs of the people are what really matters. And if the people don't actually entirely agree with the Constitution to the point that they're willing to fight for it and drag their representatives out of Government over it, it's as useless as any other piece of paper.

Have you ever tried to get a group of people to protest anything? Like seriously, the black lives matter are more effective, than people regarding the NSA, privacy, or encryption. Even though some of the stuff we know about the government is WAY scarier.

Not to downplay the NSA issues -- but it's a lot scarier for a black/brown person to realize their life can be ended when they get stopped for having a tail light out.

Re: N.S.A. Contractor Arrested in Possible New Theft of Secrets

#37

Post by idlewords » Wed, Oct 05, 2016, 5:37 PM UTC

redwards510 wrote: post #32

idlewords wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stealing source code from the NSA is not whistleblowing.

Depends on what that source code does. What if it overloads electrical systems placed in orphanages in China where they grow hackers and burns down the building with the kids inside?

I would love to see the scrum meeting for this one.

Re: N.S.A. Contractor Arrested in Possible New Theft of Secrets

#38

Post by withholding » Wed, Oct 05, 2016, 5:38 PM UTC

VelociRapster wrote: post #21

eeZah7Ux wrote: post #5

"New Theft of Secrets", as if whistleblowing was a bad thing. "he stole and disclosed highly classified computer codes developed to hack into the networks of foreign governments" "different in nature from Mr. Snowden’s theft" What's next, NYtimes, calling people "rats" for reporting a homicide?

Are you of the opinion that whistleblowing and espionage are the same thing? It's one thing to call attention to warrantless wiretapping and unconstitutional practices. It's an entirely different thing to take and distribute the source code of a tool used to access foreign government systems. The former is illegal the latter is literally the reason why the NSA was created.

The article clearly implies that Snowden's actions were "theft"

Re: N.S.A. Contractor Arrested in Possible New Theft of Secrets

#39

Post by dogma1138 » Wed, Oct 05, 2016, 5:41 PM UTC

jbapple wrote: post #33

dogma1138 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Secret" arrests are fairly common, they are often used daily when you need to arrest a large group of people without them scattering. Say you have 5 arrests warrants for members of a gang, you often can't arrest them all the once so here is where the "secret" comes into play when they are arrested and the arrest is maintained confidential for 24-48 hours depending on the jurisdiction. This is done to prevent the res…

This arrest happened in late August, it seems. Has SCOTUS set limits on how long prisoners can be held secretly?

Criminal justice gags are usually hours to days depending on the case.

The longer ones are usually to protect the arrestee if they are being put into protective custody / witness protection or are released as an informant.

Since this is national security related who knows, I don't even know if these cases have been brought up to the supreme court before.

Re: N.S.A. Contractor Arrested in Possible New Theft of Secrets

#40

Post by JumpCrisscross » Wed, Oct 05, 2016, 5:44 PM UTC

redwards510 wrote: post #30

matt_wulfeck wrote: post #8

I ask myself what I should be more upset about: that someone walked away with government hacking tools, or that our government knew about existing exploits in critical American company technologies and kept them a secret?

Understandable complaints, but isn't the latter just standard procedure in modern cyberwarfare? I think I would be more upset if America didn't have any offensive zero-day weapons to strike with. If we only had capability against foreign companies software, everyone would just buy American and be immune.

Would Americans be more or less secure in that world?

On account of (a) unjust governments being more likely to abuse power than just ones, (b) unjust governments are more dangerous than unjust actors and (c) the belief that just governments are plausible, I would say "more".

If you live under an unjust government, their curtailed power is a plus. If you live under a just government, your threat profile from unjust governments is decreased. The threat from unjust actors may increase, but that is a fair trade-off per (b).