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Challenges for Artificial Intelligence in Medicine

blog.cardiogr.am

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Re: Challenges for Artificial Intelligence in Medicine

#31
Many people might not understand just how busy physicians are, and how difficult it can be to integrate a new product into the clinical workflow.

The most pressing thing to understand is that clinicians spend the VAST majority of their time gathering all of the necessary information to make a diagnosis. In other words, they aren't puzzling over how to diagnose about 85% (made that up) of their patients.

Once the necessary information is gathered, an experienced doc doesn't usually spend more than about 10-15 seconds debating different diagnoses. Therefore, if your tool takes more than 10-15 seconds to launch, enter any necessary data, and get a result, you are slowing the clinician down and they won't use it. This is why automated EKG interpretations (which are very much a real thing used at hospitals across the country) print directly on the EKG printout - it doesn't cost the clinician more than about 2 seconds to read what the machine thinks and adjust their interpretation accordingly[1].

One of the major problems limiting adoption of "expert" computer systems is the amount of (very expensive) integration it takes to get them under that 10-15 second limit. One of the big reasons radiology is seeing a lot of buzz around machine learning and automated interpretation is that integration becomes a lot easier when you can just feed in an image and maybe 5 words about the indication for the study.

I would love to go on for a while about this stuff, but I'll stop there for now :)

[1] Some people here might be interested to learn that non-cardiologists generally don't have negative views about automated EKG interpretations. But we are also very well-aware that when we make decisions about a patient, those decisions have to be anchored to something a lot more substantial than "the machine told me to do it."

Re: Challenges for Artificial Intelligence in Medicine

#32
post #2

(OP here) We spend a lot of time thinking about how to make AI succeed in medicine. Given that so many efforts, including MYCIN, have been tried and failed before, one of the key questions to answer is "Why now?" In other words, what has changed in the world which will let AI succeed where it has failed before? I'm curious: is anybody else here applying deep learning, or any other subfield of AI, to healthcare? If so…

I've used deep learning for segmenting brain anatomical scans, and I worked in a lab that used neural networks to detect cancerous tumors. I suspect the first major hospital-facing implementations of machine learning will be in radiology, e.g.: http://suzukilab.uchicago.edu/ , which has been diagnosing cancerous tumors in CT scans with neural networks since before it was cool (one reason you won't see the terms 'deep…

Ct scans aren't really used to look for brain tumors. We use mri for that mostly. Ct is used for screening of stroke, trauma and other things. Source: radiologist / me.

I work on radiology image segmentation also. And I agree it is solvable with machine learning. But even if software could do a job of a radiologist, it wouldn't replace one any more than your ekg reading program replaced cardiologists.

Re: Challenges for Artificial Intelligence in Medicine

#33
post #25
post #2

(OP here) We spend a lot of time thinking about how to make AI succeed in medicine. Given that so many efforts, including MYCIN, have been tried and failed before, one of the key questions to answer is "Why now?" In other words, what has changed in the world which will let AI succeed where it has failed before? I'm curious: is anybody else here applying deep learning, or any other subfield of AI, to healthcare? If so…

Our startup, CliniCloud, is currently looking at applying deep learning on respiratory recordings obtained from auscultation using our digital connected stethoscope. We've also partnered with teaching hospitals to try and obtained labelled and "clean" data samples to try and use a semi-supervised approach for the detection of asthma and wheeze severity rating. To be honest, even if we were to stumble across a revolut…

What makes you skeptical about dissemination of your product in particular?

Re: Challenges for Artificial Intelligence in Medicine

#34
post #22
post #2

(OP here) We spend a lot of time thinking about how to make AI succeed in medicine. Given that so many efforts, including MYCIN, have been tried and failed before, one of the key questions to answer is "Why now?" In other words, what has changed in the world which will let AI succeed where it has failed before? I'm curious: is anybody else here applying deep learning, or any other subfield of AI, to healthcare? If so…

> I'm curious: is anybody else here applying deep learning, or any other subfield of AI, to healthcare? > If so... do the challenges listed in this post resonate? Do you believe the shifts identified are the right ones to focus on? I'm applying deep learning in a healthcare application and certainly the points you raise resonate and are generally the right areas to address for utilizing AI (for points 2 and 3 really…

This is an insightful response! I'm curious, what AI application are you working on?

Re: Challenges for Artificial Intelligence in Medicine

#35

Many people might not understand just how busy physicians are, and how difficult it can be to integrate a new product into the clinical workflow. The most pressing thing to understand is that clinicians spend the VAST majority of their time gathering all of the necessary information to make a diagnosis. In other words, they aren't puzzling over how to diagnose about 85% (made that up) of their patients. Once the nece…

What kind of information do they gather, and can that be automated?

Re: Challenges for Artificial Intelligence in Medicine

#36
post #2

(OP here) We spend a lot of time thinking about how to make AI succeed in medicine. Given that so many efforts, including MYCIN, have been tried and failed before, one of the key questions to answer is "Why now?" In other words, what has changed in the world which will let AI succeed where it has failed before? I'm curious: is anybody else here applying deep learning, or any other subfield of AI, to healthcare? If so…

MYCIN did not fail: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/480542 From the abstract: "MYCIN received an acceptability rating of 65% by the evaluators; the corresponding ratings for acceptability of the regimen prescribed by the five faculty specialists ranged from 42.5% to 62.5%." So, better than the human experts considered individually. Expert systems are able to explain their reasoning, which is essential if they are…

Yep—as you point out, the first paragraph of the article cites the same 1979 MYCIN accuracy results you did. My criteria for success is enduring impact on the way medicine is practiced, so the the rest of the article tries to answer the "What's different today?" question about adoption you raise in your second-to-last sentence.

Re: Challenges for Artificial Intelligence in Medicine

#37

Many people might not understand just how busy physicians are, and how difficult it can be to integrate a new product into the clinical workflow. The most pressing thing to understand is that clinicians spend the VAST majority of their time gathering all of the necessary information to make a diagnosis. In other words, they aren't puzzling over how to diagnose about 85% (made that up) of their patients. Once the nece…

One way to think about AI's potential impact is less about replacing what physicians do well currently, and more about doing things they can't do at all.

Take ECGs -- it's true that in a hospital, an automated ECG interpretation doesn't buy you much. But what about about the patient with a paroxysmal heart rhythm that doesn't show up when they're at the doctor's office?

I was at a patient conference recently, and people were describing the first time they felt atrial fibrillation (a common abnormal heart rhythm). Many times, by the time they got to the doctor, they were back in sinus rhythm and thus the ECG showed no abnormality. Some were told they were just feeling "anxious" or "going through menopause." It often took months of persistence just to get a diagnosis.

Now, if have cheap sensors + AI analyzing the patient's whole heart history before they walk in the door, you can do a lot of good for real people.

Re: Challenges for Artificial Intelligence in Medicine

#38
The real disruption is in giving power to the patient not the doctor. I want that power. I check online resources all the time about every sign and symptom I get, about every drug and medicine and about all procedures in order to avoid visits at all cost, only for surgery, only as last resource.

Yes, self-medication is wrong, right now is wrong, and there exactly is the disruption. Give information to the patients as a first line of defense, then let doctors handle the special cases.

Re: Challenges for Artificial Intelligence in Medicine

#39

Many people might not understand just how busy physicians are, and how difficult it can be to integrate a new product into the clinical workflow. The most pressing thing to understand is that clinicians spend the VAST majority of their time gathering all of the necessary information to make a diagnosis. In other words, they aren't puzzling over how to diagnose about 85% (made that up) of their patients. Once the nece…

What kind of information do they gather, and can that be automated?

One of the challenges of medicine is that the information is gathered from so many sources and is so "fuzzy" in quality.

Building a "database" of information from which to make a diagnosis is unlikely to be easily automated. Take a straightforward case of a patient who comes to the emergency department after "fainting". Did they slowly kind of "melt" to the ground, or did they just BOOM fall? Were they confused after they woke up, or just a little sleepy? Was it a hot day or is it wintertime? Were they wearing a shirt and tie, or a t-shirt? Different answers to each of these questions will change the probability of each potential diagnosis. The signal:noise ratio is frequently very low, and there's not a great way to improve it without adding an extremely large amount of cost and time to an already expensive and slow healthcare system.

Good clinicians already have an idea of the top 2-3 most likely possibilities before they walk into a patient's room, based on epidemiology and a quick review of a patient's chart, but we try to be flexible enough to discard those preconceptions if new info becomes available. Sometimes clinicians fail to fully investigate what a patient is telling them, and that's where the real mistakes get made.

Re: Challenges for Artificial Intelligence in Medicine

#40

The real disruption is in giving power to the patient not the doctor. I want that power. I check online resources all the time about every sign and symptom I get, about every drug and medicine and about all procedures in order to avoid visits at all cost, only for surgery, only as last resource. Yes, self-medication is wrong, right now is wrong, and there exactly is the disruption. Give information to the patients as…

This is a hard one.. you want a cautious doctor but at the same time you need someone who will order the test when necessary and is not overworked. The balance is in self advocating and not crying wolf. That is the problem AI needs to solve.
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