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Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

nytimes.com

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Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#31

Post by kriro »

teekert wrote: post #11
smoyer wrote: post #7

Now things are going to get interesting! I completely understand the desire for privacy but I think it's unrealistic to expect that Facebook won't consolidate its data by user across all their applications. Facebook (and Google, etc.) are now in the same business as the credit reporting agencies ... You are their only product. My hope is that the increasing outrage will drive users to one of the secure messaging appl…

Whatsapp gained massive users with their "no commercials ever" claim. They were a small independent company. And people arguably got invested in the network as a result. Now they reverse on that but the public feels locked in. I myself think... just switch to Signal or Telegram, but the amount of WA users is simply massive here in the EU. Everybody uses it.

Sometimes I wonder if the strategy of announcing "due to the anti commercial data privacy demands in Germany we are forced to suspend all German WA accounts for the next couple of days" is ever discussed at Facebook.

I'd be interested to see the political pressure it would create. I think the network is strong enough that people won't switch to other apps instantly and there would be a pretty big "just gimme back my WA" outcry which politicians would probably need to respond to.

Obviously the Datenschutzbeauftragte are theoretically independent but I'm sure they'd feel the heat. At least I'd be interested in seeing this play out if a law is being discussed. It won't ever happen but I have a feeling people would want WA enough that it could theoretically be used as a strategy.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#32

Post by Grangar »

patrickaljord wrote: post #25

Facebook asked WhatsApp users to give consent before collecting data, which some did. Why should the government intervine between consenting adults agreeing on a contract willfully? Isn't this the definition of tyranny and why we oppose things such as the war on drugs?

These terms and conditions are untransparent garbage. It's estimated that if a person was to read everything they agree too, they'd be busy 24/7.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#33

Post by pille »

patrickaljord wrote: post #25

Facebook asked WhatsApp users to give consent before collecting data, which some did. Why should the government intervine between consenting adults agreeing on a contract willfully? Isn't this the definition of tyranny and why we oppose things such as the war on drugs?

> intervine between consenting adults Buried in a setting that defaulted to the change that FB wanted. If you were to sneak in a change to a contract in the same way, I think a lot of courts would throw it out, or maybe even consider it fraudulent.

> isn't that the definition of tyranny? Seems more like just the definition of government. The German government seems like both the underdog and the less capricious actor in this case.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#34

Post by icebraining »

patrickaljord wrote: post #25

Facebook asked WhatsApp users to give consent before collecting data, which some did. Why should the government intervine between consenting adults agreeing on a contract willfully? Isn't this the definition of tyranny and why we oppose things such as the war on drugs?

Isn't this the definition of tyranny and why we oppose things such as the war on drugs?

In my experience, many people don't argue against the war on drugs due to being against any imposition on consensual transactions but because it harms the people intended to help. They'd be fine with it otherwise.

Personally, I have some sympathy for your view, but I'm of the opinion that contracts require meeting of the minds, and that it's plainly obvious that many, possibly most users have no real idea of what they're trading away, evidenced by the fact that the T&C conditions of these services are unreadable and not even expected to be read.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#36

Post by 0xmohit »

Quoting from the link:

  Facebook said on Tuesday, after the order had been issued, that
  it had complied with Europe’s privacy rules and that it was
  willing to work with the German regulator to address its
  concerns.
Two Indian students challenged Facebook on WhatsApp privacy policy changes [0]. The following is what WhatsApp counsel told [1]:

  Using the messaging service is a voluntary decision, we have
  not forced anybody to use it. Users have an option of opting
  out of it.
Disclaimer: I don't have an account on either Facebook or WhatsApp.

[0] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-20/facebook-f...

[1] http://mashable.com/2016/09/23/india-delhi-high-court-whatsa...

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#37

Post by denzil_correa »

icantdrive55 wrote: post #10

I would like to see a federal Staute inacted regarding the collection of user data in the US. Enacted quickly! Something on the lines of don't collect any data, besides name, password, email address. This information can never be sold. I have weird feeling, in the near future, we will find that information/data has been abused. No just abused by marketing/big data, etc.. And I'm not even arguing about the obvious--pe…

> I have a feeling, it will be the next big financial insider trading scandal. It will involve people we talk about here-- Google/Bing/FB insiders(the ones who can see individual IP's, and their data.), took all that information, and traded stock upon it.

I have a similar prediction. There will come a time when companies with the USP of user data would be struggling to keep themselves afloat. What happens to user data, then? Will the organizations sell user data to keep them afloat?

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#38

Post by kriro »

patrickaljord wrote: post #25

Facebook asked WhatsApp users to give consent before collecting data, which some did. Why should the government intervine between consenting adults agreeing on a contract willfully? Isn't this the definition of tyranny and why we oppose things such as the war on drugs?

There are some things you cannot contractually agree to in most countries. A government would also intervene if I agreed that you can kill me to harvest my organs if the money goes to my family and similar scenarios.

It's an interesting ethical debate where the lines in the sand should be drawn (or if there should be any lines at all for that matter) but traditionally some lines exist and there are some things governments feel they need to control on behalf of consenting adults.

Additionally it's a question of discrimination laws in certain countries. If WA gave you the option of opting out but in return not being able to use their service at all that could be seen as discrimination. If you take the stance that personal information are a very essential good that isn't all that unreasonable (once again I'm not making a value judgment only a logical one).

I believe in most societies there's a somewhat solid majority support for the idea that government sets some rules for the marketplace. How many/if there should be any is open for debate but these frameworks exist and are typically backed by majority votes.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#39

Post by fauigerzigerk »

bonoboTP wrote: post #18
chii wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Something on the lines of don't collect any data, besides name, password, email address. This information can never be sold. Would you then pay for the services in full that you now could use for free?

Maybe yes, maybe not. So what? It should still be forbidden. If it turns out that not enough people want to pay for it, then tough luck for the company, they should design something that people will pay for. For example it is forbidden to take organs from people as payment. We could forbid taking certain private data from masses of people as payment.

If you put trade in organs in the same basket as trade in conclusions from personal data, then I have to wonder what you put in the other basket, the one where consenting adults are allowed to freely enter into agreements.

If you are criticising that people are not willingly and knowingly entering into agreements with Facebook or Google, that is another debate. Yes I think there should be the utmost level of transparency and regulatory action on that front is justified in my view.

But telling people that they cannot trade access to personal data for access to services goes way beyond the role I think governments should have.

If that sort of thing is prohibited, how can a government allow its people to make any decisions that potentially affect their safety and their future, like choosing a career path, choosing a place to live, making decisions on health, education, kids, etc?

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#40

Post by greggman »

smoyer wrote: post #7

Now things are going to get interesting! I completely understand the desire for privacy but I think it's unrealistic to expect that Facebook won't consolidate its data by user across all their applications. Facebook (and Google, etc.) are now in the same business as the credit reporting agencies ... You are their only product. My hope is that the increasing outrage will drive users to one of the secure messaging appl…

I'm not sure I mind FB collecting data on my when using FB directly.

OTOH today I read a 10 minute article on an unrelated site about loneliness. When I got to the end of the article an in page popup appeared that said something along the lines of "Liked by 9571 people including your friend John Smith".

I was extremely creeped out. What right does FB have for knowing that I read some article on an unrelated website?

I immediately installed Ublock Origin, blocked facebook.com and messenger.com. My plan is to delete all my cookies and run a separate chrome profile for facebook. Not sure I'll be able to keep the discipline.

Yes I know Chrome saves some of the same data but you can optionally encrypt it and Google at least claims they aren't using for ads https://www.google.com/chrome/browser/privacy/

On the other hand Google's other services like analytics are probably tracking me but so far they haven't been as creepy.

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