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Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

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Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#31

Post by legulere »

jokoon wrote: post #4

I fail to understand why Scandinavian politics always manage to make sense. Is that cultural, historical, economical, or does the tough climate force people to think a little bit more about how they manage their society?

There's also lots of things wrong in Scandinavia. There's segregation between the "native" population and the immigrants/their descendants. Suspects for crime, including children are put into isolation by default. Strict drug laws, strict alcohol laws that lead to binge drinking instead of a normal enjoyment of beer/wine. A strong sense that they're the best in the world which they often actively carry outwards.

Still I really love it.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#32

Post by vidarh »

berntb wrote: post #23
vidarh wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are included in the OECD total tax wedge numbers. EDIT: The reason your numbers don't add up is that you can't just add those numbers together with income tax numbers - you also then need to add the amount paid by the employer to the salary to get the gross amount paid for a worker, and recalculate the percentage from the total base.

I know the definition. I also know that just the "hidden" cost not presented to people as "tax" is 31.42% of the salary. The tax rate in itself is generally around 30%. So something is rotten in Den.. Swedish data. :-) Anyway, it doesn't change my original argument really. I ignored lots of other costs per employee to sell repair time. Edit: It is probably that the lowest amount to pay taxes on have been raised a lot…

> (The numbers are too big with 31.42% added to the sum and 30% tax for that to result in 41%.)

Salary is the original "100%" here, but the cost to the business is higher than that, and so if we are to talk about the cost to the business we need to adjust the percentages accordingly.

100% + 31.42% is the total expense to the business.

So 30% of salary and 31.42% of salary = 61.42% of salary, but only 46.74% of the total expense.

But most people will have well below 30% income tax.

E.g. here's the Swedish tax authority's own examples of income tax rates paid:

http://www.skatteverket.se/privat/skatter/arbeteochinkomst/s...

Average salary in Sweden is around the ~375,000 SEK, putting typical income tax for someone on an average salary towards the lower end of the 23% range 28% somewhere from that table.

Using 23% in the calculation above, we'd end up with a tax wedge of 41.4%. With 28% we end up at 45.2%.

This is before any additional deductions.

It's close enough to the OECD numbers that if you were to look at the basis data and assumptions underlying the OECD report (it's all public), and/or go through the actual tax calculations that the above table is based on, and make sure the years match up, I'm pretty sure you'd get it to match.

So let's say it's in a range somewhere around 41% and 45%.

> Edit 2: Regarding total tax and calculation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Sweden#Example_of_....

That page uses headline rates without actually considering that the tax rates are not applied to the gross salary, but to taxable income, adjusted for various deductions. It totally confuses matters and is clearly written by someone who doesn't understand how tax works. It bears little relation to reality.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#33

Post by to3m »

sokoloff wrote: post #30
tmptmp wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>And the failure mode either sounds dramatic (like a jet engine coming apart in the spin cycle) and/or the machine starts putting brown grease onto the clothes, making people believe the problem is not a simple one. Great insight. I wonder how far we (as in general society) have come from the science/technology aspects of our day to day life. Even repairing simple machines like a washing machine is almost beyond the…

The availability of tools is far from a given as well. It appalls me how few people will tackle what seem to me to be utterly basic repair tasks. I may be on the extreme end, but I think some people would pay someone to change a lightbulb in their house (and I'm sure a great many DO pay someone to replace a headlamp or tail light bulbs). I'm trying to do my part, ensuring that my kids are exposed to the DIY/maker/hac…

How to change a light bulb on a Renault Megane: http://www.meganeownersclub.co.uk/changingmeganebulb.php

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#34

Post by gmac »

gambiting wrote: post #28

The only problem with repairing devices is labour cost, nothing else. I've had a broken subwoofer that I took to a small electronics shop(in UK), and was quoted 60 pounds to even have it looked at. Not repaired - looked at. The subwoofer cost me 80 pounds on ebay. So predictably, it went straight to the bin. Same with washing machines, dryers, etc - I bought a Hotpoint washing machine for 220 pounds, but a standard c…

On your subwoofer, you can try listing that kind of thing on Freecycle/Freegle. Commonly someone technically competetent will pick it up to see if they can fix it.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#35

Post by sokoloff »

to3m wrote: post #33
sokoloff wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The availability of tools is far from a given as well. It appalls me how few people will tackle what seem to me to be utterly basic repair tasks. I may be on the extreme end, but I think some people would pay someone to change a lightbulb in their house (and I'm sure a great many DO pay someone to replace a headlamp or tail light bulbs). I'm trying to do my part, ensuring that my kids are exposed to the DIY/maker/hac…

How to change a light bulb on a Renault Megane: http://www.meganeownersclub.co.uk/changingmeganebulb.php

There are Audis where you need to remove the front bumper to change the headlamp. (Less of a concern with HID and LEDs, but some of them are still halogen.)

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#36

Post by sametmax »

tmptmp wrote: post #26
sokoloff wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not "only" to screw consumers over. IMEstimation, vanishingly few consumers would repair a washer with a bearing failure, most because they assume the service call and repair would be $400+ and the new machine only about double that, so might as well just buy a new one. And the failure mode either sounds dramatic (like a jet engine coming apart in the spin cycle) and/or the machine starts putting brown grease on…

>>And the failure mode either sounds dramatic (like a jet engine coming apart in the spin cycle) and/or the machine starts putting brown grease onto the clothes, making people believe the problem is not a simple one. Great insight. I wonder how far we (as in general society) have come from the science/technology aspects of our day to day life. Even repairing simple machines like a washing machine is almost beyond the…

I always has been. Even 30 years ago most people didn't know how to fix those machines. People fixing cars or plumbery have been popularized by TV and books, but really they were a minority, for the simple reason learning a skill takes time. And most people invest their time in only a limited set of things.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#37

Post by vidarh »

charlesdm wrote: post #25
vidarh wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the OECD Taxing Wages report [1] for 2016, the total tax wedge for Sweden, including employer contributions, is 42.7%. (Note: for those who are confused about it: This is not the percentage tax paid out of contracted wages - the average tax paid on the contracted wages are much lower) > If he is going to rent an hour from someone with the same salary as himself/herself, that will be three times the hourl…

Don't forget to add their 25% VAT rate if you actually want to spend your money.. so you end up with 42.7% + 25%. That's nuts.

No, titzer gets closer, by pointing out that you for starters can't possibly pay VAT on buying stuff with money you don't have. You don't have the money you have paid in taxes.

However, as I've pointed out elsewhere, that is total tax wedge including employer contributions. If you are looking at total cost to a business, your cost is 131.42% of your contracted salary. That is what the 42.7% comes from.

Actual income tax on an average salary is somewhere below 28% (see discussion elsewhere where I cite a table from the Swedish tax authorities - 28% is their estimate for a 500k salary; average salary is roughly 375k). This would leave you with at most 72% of your salary to buy VAT rated stuff with.

If you were to spend all of that on 25% VAT rated stuff, it'd mean an additional 18% tax on your salary, but only 13.7% of the total. That 13.7% is the number comparable to the 42.7% number, so if that was the case your total tax wedge would be 56.4%.

However, that isn't the case, because you're not paying VAT on mortgage payments, for example, nor on any money you haven't actually spent (so savings etc.). Many goods and services are also taxed at lower rates. I don't know specifically about Sweden, but most countries don't apply VAT to basic food stuffs, for example (I do know Sweden has reduced VAT rates of 12% and 6% as well as zero rating - I just don't have a handy table of what the reduce rates applies to).

If we more realistically assume that only half of your net income gets spend on VAT'able products and services, including it in the total tax wedge would only increase it by 6.85%.

Your mileage will vary depending on how you spend, but it certainly won't under any circumstance increase your total tax wedge by anything remotely close to 25%.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#38

Post by sokoloff »

sametmax wrote: post #36
tmptmp wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>And the failure mode either sounds dramatic (like a jet engine coming apart in the spin cycle) and/or the machine starts putting brown grease onto the clothes, making people believe the problem is not a simple one. Great insight. I wonder how far we (as in general society) have come from the science/technology aspects of our day to day life. Even repairing simple machines like a washing machine is almost beyond the…

I always has been. Even 30 years ago most people didn't know how to fix those machines. People fixing cars or plumbery have been popularized by TV and books, but really they were a minority, for the simple reason learning a skill takes time. And most people invest their time in only a limited set of things.

I think there was a lot of DIY in the post-Depression, wartime, and immediately post-war economy. Could be just my family experience, but both sets of my grandparents had a very strong "use it up, wear it out, make it do" philosophy and that included fixing/bodging when appropriate.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#39

Post by sheraz »

jokoon wrote: post #4

I fail to understand why Scandinavian politics always manage to make sense. Is that cultural, historical, economical, or does the tough climate force people to think a little bit more about how they manage their society?

I see why you and many others living outside of the region would think that. Sweden is very good at only extolling her perceived "virtues" and sweeping the rest under the rug. Waaaay under the rug.

There is a real moral and intellectual superiority among many Swedes that I find deeply distasteful. From environment to politics to how to bag your groceries, and yes--even close a door properly, the "Swedish way" is always promoted as the only "right way."

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#40

Post by userbinator »

J-dawg wrote: post #6

This idea seems so sensible it's a no-brainer. (I'm almost dreading the comments explaining why I'm wrong!) The human race is producing unprecedented quantities of non-recyclable "stuff". It's pumped out of the ground as oil, converted into plastics, and after a short life, buried in the ground again. Maybe this wouldn't be so bad if much of it didn't also end up floating in the ocean, being eaten by animals and cont…

It's pumped out of the ground as oil, converted into plastics, and after a short life, buried in the ground again. Maybe this wouldn't be so bad if much of it didn't also end up floating in the ocean, being eaten by animals and contaminating the human food chain.

What I think is most sad about this is that we've come up with a material that can last nearly forever and is relatively easy to reuse and recycle (at least for simple thermoplastics like polyethylene which is what most plastic bags are made of), and yet we waste massive quantities of it. Biodegradable plastics just fuel the "disposable culture" and its resource consumption more, because they are deliberately designed to not last long.

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