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Why I Never Let Employees Negotiate a Raise

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Re: Why I Never Let Employees Negotiate a Raise

#31

Post by _delirium »

jerf wrote: post #11
helwr wrote: post #8

this whole Microsoft-style pay scale reminds me of government jobs, or worse - Soviet Union where my parents earned a standard doctor-engineer-truck driver-movie director-nurse salary of 100 rubles a month +/- the bureaucrat defined 'pay scale'. Come on, people, this is a free market! "is this the UDA? / Or is this the IRA? / I thought it was the USA / Or just another country" (c) Sex Pistols

Capitalism is a series of centralized entities embedded in a larger sea of freedom with no (theoretically) overarching order imposed. Fog Creek is free to compensate people in this manner. You are free to seek employment elsewhere if this is a problem. It would not be a free market if either A: the government mandated this approach (or worse, mandated the pay scale) or B: an oligarchy formed where everybody determine…

It might be worth noting that there's a decent amount of debate in free-market-capitalist circles over just how natural it is that these centralized entities emerge, versus how much they're encouraged/enabled by the government. A lot of the structure of the modern corporation is basically state-created: the limited-liability corporate status to begin with, the centralized form of management with a board of directors, etc.

If there was no built-in scaffolding of corporate status and corporate law, and it were just individuals operating in a free market forming whatever arrangements they want via private contract law, it's at least possible that large, centralized entities wouldn't emerge as easily or as frequently. From that perspective, the modern "sea of centralized entities" version of capitalism is itself centrally planned: the government decided that it'd be best if the economy were made up of a sea of centralized entities, and wrote the rules so that it happened.

Re: Why I Never Let Employees Negotiate a Raise

#32

Post by markkoberlein »

portman wrote: post #19
markkoberlein wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Joel said in a stackoverflow podcast that he publishes the formula for the pay scales and profit sharing amounts so if an employee really wanted to know someone else's salary they could figure it out based on their position and how long they have been with the company. I like the idea of transparency with salaries as long as the company pays well. If an employee decides he/she wants a higher salary than is afforded b…

I just spent 36 minutes searching the transcripts, but I can't find the episode where he talked about this. https://stackoverflow.fogbugz.com/?W4 However, I distinctly remember, and later confirmed, that Fog Creek only publishes the salaries at each scale, and not the profit sharing.

You may be right about the profit sharing. I thought I remember him saying that it was divided according to how long you have been with the company, but maybe it's not apart of the same "formula".

Re: Why I Never Let Employees Negotiate a Raise

#33

Post by bdr »

"if you're the kind of person who likes to use self-important HR jargon"

Wow, talk about self-important. People have a term for something you just took a paragraph to explain. Can you guess why? This comes across as a pointless dig to make yourself feel superior.

Re: Why I Never Let Employees Negotiate a Raise

#35

Post by ahoyhere »

_delirium wrote: post #31
jerf wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism is a series of centralized entities embedded in a larger sea of freedom with no (theoretically) overarching order imposed. Fog Creek is free to compensate people in this manner. You are free to seek employment elsewhere if this is a problem. It would not be a free market if either A: the government mandated this approach (or worse, mandated the pay scale) or B: an oligarchy formed where everybody determine…

It might be worth noting that there's a decent amount of debate in free-market-capitalist circles over just how natural it is that these centralized entities emerge, versus how much they're encouraged/enabled by the government. A lot of the structure of the modern corporation is basically state-created: the limited-liability corporate status to begin with, the centralized form of management with a board of directors,…

This is an EXTREMELY interesting observation, since most people think "market" and think "corporations," when the corporation is a fairly new thing -- at least, when it wasn't blessed by the govt (e.g. East India Trading 'Company').

It's simple to take it for granted that it's natural, when instead, it's about as natural as bamboo entrained to grow in loops. Made of natural stuff... yes. In natural form... no.

I KNEW all those individual facts, but you know, I never put it together until you put it just so.

What have you been reading that shaped your views/thinking? I'd like to check it out.

Re: Why I Never Let Employees Negotiate a Raise

#36

Post by spuz »

ratsbane wrote: post #9

This is not the first of Spolsky's essays that's left me simultaneously amazed at his brilliance and clarity and dismayed at something around the edges that just completely misses. Maybe it's just the title that's misleading. His emphasis on openness is great but he's really just moved the discussion from "how much money" to "how should I rate your contributions." Most salary discussions come down to this question an…

I think the point is that Joel tackles the problem of assessing each employee's contribution straight on and unambiguously. I'm sure there is opportunity for negotiation if you believe you have made more contribution than your position on the ladder would suggest. Most other companies won't even attempt to explain how they determine salaries because they are not brave enough to tell their employees "you're good, but not great". Equally, most employees aren't willing to discuss it objectively - we all think we're above average, right? By attempting to put more structure around the process, Fog Creek are making it a lot easier for them and their employees to talk openly about their (and their colleagues') contributions.

Re: Why I Never Let Employees Negotiate a Raise

#37

Post by roschdal »

"Because salary information is viewed as particularly sensitive, employers often go to great lengths to keep it under wraps."

In Norway, salary information is viewed as public information. Each year the government releases the income, assets and amount of payed tax of every citizen, so that the media can make it public. It is then made searchable online, for example here: http://skattelister.no/

Re: Why I Never Let Employees Negotiate a Raise

#38

Post by wushupork »

frederickcook wrote: post #10
TheSOB88 wrote: post #2

This site had 3 pop-overs. I'm not sure they want me to read their content.

Agreed, terrible. The last one didn't have a place to close it, so I bounced. Too bad, since the discussion looks like it was an interesting article.

I opened firebug and set the display to none but yeah there was no close button and it was annoying as hell.

Re: Why I Never Let Employees Negotiate a Raise

#39

Post by huherto »

"I found a Seattle-area software-consulting firm called Construx that had published on its website the outline of a decent professional ladder system" It sounds like it is just another consulting firm. Construx founder and CEO is Steve McConnell, he wrote some great books about software development back in the day.
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