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The fishy ingredient in beer that bothers vegetarians

bbc.co.uk

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Re: The fishy ingredient in beer that bothers vegetarians

#31

Post by tobltobs »

Nursie wrote: post #15
franze wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In germany there is something called "Reinheitsgebot" - the oldest (1516) food law in existence (if you don't count religious "laws"). It states that you can only use water, barley and hops for beer production. So no fish in german beer.

Is that still the law? Also, it may not be considered an ingredient so much as a tool or technique...

It isn't a law anymore. But I do not know one beer brewery which doesn't still brew according to it. However, the food industry is usually quite creative in bending the rules...

Re: The fishy ingredient in beer that bothers vegetarians

#32

Post by adrianratnapala »

franze wrote: post #14
creshal wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently in Germany it fell out of use – mechanical filtration systems are better and cheaper nowadays –, and is only used for some traditional wines (and possibly beers). However, it is not considered an ingredient, and so does not need to be listed on the bottles.

In germany there is something called "Reinheitsgebot" - the oldest (1516) food law in existence (if you don't count religious "laws"). It states that you can only use water, barley and hops for beer production. So no fish in german beer.

The Reinheitsgebot sounds like a good reason for brewers to be lawyerly about what counts as an "ingredient". So traditionally they used it but claimed it wasn't an ingredient, and then when mechanical filtration improved, they decided that was a safer course.

Re: The fishy ingredient in beer that bothers vegetarians

#33

Post by Nursie »

talldan wrote: post #30
creshal wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but it's completely removed before bottling. Is a spoon an ingredient?

How is it removed? Here's some details on brewing with Isinglass: http://byo.com/malt/item/645-fining-your-beer-techniques I've only done homebrew - but I can't see how a powder, moss or tablet can be removed again once it has mostly dissolved.

I've only done homebrew and never used isinglass....

But when I used gelatin it set the yeast sediment into a jelly-like layer at the bottom of the fermentation vessel, so when I bottled I'm not sure there was really any in the finished product. The same may apply here.

I think the point of all of them is to encourage sedimentation, and thus they shouldn't be significantly present in the finished product

Re: The fishy ingredient in beer that bothers vegetarians

#34

Post by forlulz »

talldan wrote: post #26
colinramsay wrote: post #2

In the UK there's a definite sentiment that a cloudy pint is a bad or off pint. I've seen a few breweries that specifically label their beer as "unfined" to make sure people know what to expect. I do find the slight distaste of fish bladders in this article a bit baffling though.

Not sure I agree with that. There's the same attitude pretty much everywhere, its not any more prevalent in the UK. Lager the whole world over has the same sort of clarity. In fact, the UK has a stronger craft beer and real ale scene than many other countries, so I'd say there are a lot of people here willing to drink a cloudy glass. It's much more likely that the continued use of Isinglass is due to tradition, and n…

For a long time, in the UK at least, clarity just is more visually appealing. In the past the role of the cellarman was much more hands-on; there was a time where beer was unfined leaving the brewery and fined on delivery once casks were put in place. Much of this art is disappearing, but it has been a while that the beer has been designed to be clear. With that, the bottom of casks are murky with yeast (since filtering is uncommon) and isinglass - which may make you ill (it tastes bad too) so cloudy beer has been associated with off beer or the end-of-cask.

I've tried serving a cask wheat beer which was rejected purely by appearance in the past.

Mind you, things have been changing rapidly in 5/6 years and many breweries make their tasty products without isinglass (or vegan-friendly alternatives+). Some choose to be fairly close to pin bright and others less so - depends on many things like more flocculant house yeast, etc.

I can say that around 5 years ago, a brewery made the decision to switch to being unfined for flavour - and their products were cloudy then onwards. It was difficult to 'sell' then, but now it's a commonplace. And yes, a pub did an informal experiement: flavours were altered with the addition of isinglass but from a general public opinion was divided in which they preferred (almost 50/50)

+ not necessarily equivalent. Some products are introduced during the brewing process, not after

Re: The fishy ingredient in beer that bothers vegetarians

#35

Post by Nursie »

tobltobs wrote: post #31
Nursie wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that still the law? Also, it may not be considered an ingredient so much as a tool or technique...

It isn't a law anymore. But I do not know one beer brewery which doesn't still brew according to it. However, the food industry is usually quite creative in bending the rules...

From a quick googling - it looks like finings were allowed, as they aren't strictly an ingredient.

Re: The fishy ingredient in beer that bothers vegetarians

#37

Post by Retric »

dagw wrote: post #21
coldtea wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isinglass has a long history of use in beer and wine, and is a refined collagen. A long history before modern manufacture of crappy commercial beers?

Here's a quote from 1760[1]: “I well remember for many years it was not expected, nor was it thought possible [for porter] to be made fine and bright, and four and five months was deemed to be sufficient age for it to be drunk at. The improvement of transparency has since been added to it by means of more and better workmanship, better malt, better hops and the use of isinglass.” [1] http://tempestinatankard.com/2013…

It goes back to 1722 which is very recent in beer terms. People where making beer 5,000 years ago.

Re: The fishy ingredient in beer that bothers vegetarians

#38

Post by MrLeftHand »

dublinclontarf wrote: post #29
MrLeftHand wrote: post #12

I hope they are OK with dead animals being used to fuel their cars, made into plastics to pack their stuff, producing the electricity to power their house and all the stuff in it. Never heard people being offended by killing plants for food, cutting trees grinding them into paper or just to have it as a decoration for holidays. I do agree, if it's only for aesthetics we could actually leave it out and not kill someth…

Careful when leaving the house, you might step on a bacterium or a spore.

I won't leave the house until they invent the hoverboard.

Re: The fishy ingredient in beer that bothers vegetarians

#39

Post by mrweasel »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #25
fennecfoxen wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Vegetarians do need to be careful with beer. Vegetarians may wish to be careful with beer. Some vegetarians aren't ideological/religious about it, and some that are draw lines in different places.

As cited in http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/11/why-drunk-v... : > Another survey from the USDA, also conducted by phone, put the [proportion] of vegetarians who’ve eaten meat in the last day at about two-thirds.

That's really weird. At that point who are you trying to convince that you're a vegetarian? These are people who apparently aren't even trying to be vegetarian. I can understand people who'd claim to have a preference to not eating meat, but two-thirds in the last day is ridicules.

I where a vegetarian for 12 year, without having any real reason, other than I felt like it. Even at my most drunk I could always remember that I didn't eat meat.

Two-thirds... damn that's stupid. "I really want to be a vegetarian, because fluffy cows, but OMG cheese burger". Some people are weird.

Re: The fishy ingredient in beer that bothers vegetarians

#40

Post by talldan »

Nursie wrote: post #33
talldan wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it removed? Here's some details on brewing with Isinglass: http://byo.com/malt/item/645-fining-your-beer-techniques I've only done homebrew - but I can't see how a powder, moss or tablet can be removed again once it has mostly dissolved.

I've only done homebrew and never used isinglass.... But when I used gelatin it set the yeast sediment into a jelly-like layer at the bottom of the fermentation vessel, so when I bottled I'm not sure there was really any in the finished product. The same may apply here. I think the point of all of them is to encourage sedimentation, and thus they shouldn't be significantly present in the finished product

That's a good point. It's called the 'trub' that's left at the bottom of the fermenter. So trace amounts are still present, I'd imagine.
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