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Simulation, Consciousness, Existence (1998)

frc.ri.cmu.edu

31–40 of 92 posts

Re: Simulation, Consciousness, Existence (1998)

#31
My main problem with the simulated world argument is complexity. Take the Billiard Ball example[0]. This means to accurately simulate the universe you can't really get away with approximations. Under close enough scrutiny discrepancies in the simulation are discernible, and we can scrutinize it at the subatomic level. But to simulate the observable universe, how big would your computer need to be? How slowly would the simulation run relative to the simulator's real-time? It just doesn't stack up.

The only way to do it would be to fake it by generating the appearance of a thorough simulation rather than the reality of one. In which case the arguments put forward for wanting to perform a real simulation - to simulate history and so forth - break down because you'd only be emulating the appearance of it not simulating it.

The only way out of this I can see is if the universe containing the simulator were vastly more complex than ours, such that in comparison our universe would be trivial to simulate. But then why would they do it? Our universe would be nothing like theirs. In principle this is possible, but it massively reduces the chances that our world is a simulation because only a subset, and quite possibly a vanishingly small subset, of possible universes would be capable of hosting the simulation. Possibly fewer universes that there are universes like ours. At which point the odds of ours being a simulation collapse.

[0] http://www.anecdote.com/2007/10/the-billiard-ball-example/

Re: Simulation, Consciousness, Existence (1998)

#32
post #21

> The prescientific suggestion that humans derive their experience of existence from spiritual mechanisms outside the physical world has had notable social consequences, but no success as a scientific hypothesis. Why?

Would you ask this question using more words, please?

Re: Simulation, Consciousness, Existence (1998)

#33
post #14

I am very happy to see this at least bring up one of the most strange parts of Everett's many-worlds (and others' "many-minds") theories: that in them, you are immortal; for there always exists a possible world which you didn't lose consciousness in, and your final consciousness will only propagate into those worlds. Searle's objection still seems to hold some water, though. Consciousness does not seem to be a comput…

I have trouble with the quantum immortality theory because people normally die in the 75-90 years range, and it would be supremely weird for you to just keep living while those around you all died, since in our reality humans tend to have similar lifespans. I mean, I like the idea, but it just seems so implausible.

There's no problem with the statistics. It's understood that the worlds in which anybody is 200 years old are extremely few. The probability that you'll experience such a world is either 0 or too close to make a difference. But by an anthropic principle, somebody is experiencing those worlds.

Re: Simulation, Consciousness, Existence (1998)

#34
post #11

My alma mater ^_^. The basic loop is : http://monad.ai/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/dev_framework.png You can alter the environmental context easily by re-directing the wire in/out : http://monad.ai/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/dev_context.png . An individual would be none the wiser. Sure we could be in a simulation. It's interesting to ponder on it. You'll begin forming answers when you dissect the different components,…

It's amazing how many people speak about AGI as if it's even a theoretically plausible thing. It's about as plausible and well substantiated as the Christian God. Which isn't to say it's impossible, but just that it's almost entirely an article of faith. There are a few anecdotes which maybe hint at its possibility. But nothing even approaching a rational explanation of how it might be built. Also, the model of cogni…

At this point, it seems there is no manner of detailing that will convince people that it's plausible. I'm honestly unaware as to why people can't fathom it. It's a systems issue. If you want to resolve a systems issue, you need people who have worked on complex systems.

Having done the research myself, having the computational models in front of me, and currently developing iterative capability levels, I can assure you its plausible and I've developed some pretty complex infrastructures and systems during my time in industry.

I encountered the same issue in industry when I was developing the network infrastructure equipment that ensures your packets traverse the net. "You can't do that". "That isn't possible". "You can't shave off 300ms from that process. No one has touched that code in 10 years"

Why yes you can and I personally already have a track record of doing what is said can't be done. Everything is implausible until its made plausible. So, You'll never truly know until you try.

The biggest hurdle blocking people's way is that they're choosing to run down the same path. Why should you expect different results when everyone is approaching the problem the same way? That and, instead of the most knowing people getting in the trenches and attempting to write code, they remain in the philosophical camp and their works are tossed across the wall to the applied engineering camp. Rarely do you find someone who wears multiple hats or straddles the fence. I straddled the fence, saw what I saw, and now I'm developing it.

There are few who want to start from scratch and build up models. Many are ripping models from work done in the 60's,70's, and 80's without a second thought as to what was the thinking behind them. I chose an alternative path. It's paying off.

The model of consciousness that is being used is actually not detailed in any way (purposely). So, it is not very old. I have a stack of annotated white papers on the pioneers from the 60's/70's/80's centered on this inquiry and present day papers on : Global workspace theory (GWT), integrated information theory (IIT), etc. I fail to see any deep connection between my approach and their approach.

I intentionally haven't given any detail about the computational model of consciousness that is at the center of the architecture nor even the slightest detail on how to implement it. Given the climate in this space, I hope you can appreciate why.

You see a box. I see a relationship. There are no broad boxes over anything I am developing. The diagram was made in simple reduced form to help one conceive of the ties and flows to and from the world. People sing high praise of OpenAI and OpenAI gym. I experimented with similar open source packages when attempting to create a virtual environment for testing my code. I resolved on different packages and developed my own gym. I needed more access to the core/gut functions. From what I can tell, there are several other groups/companies/individuals that have done the same. No mention of them ever. No praise. Which is fine but it just goes to show you how there are likely numerous groups making headwinds in this area that no one has ever heard of.

>In a weird way, the information processing model is a vestige of the notion of a soul. If you really accept "physical fundamentalism" as OP describes it, then the interface between the brain and the rest of the world is nothing at all. Just some atoms of many. No more interesting than the interface between your stomach and your brainstem, or between the vibrations in front of your mouth and all nearby ears.

Interface/Relationship. There are no 'boxes' until you create one.

> The only reason to center the brain/environment interface is to try to separate what you consider to be the essential identity of a person from their physical grounding. I.e. to maintain a model which includes a soul.

Objective reality (governed by strict laws like physics).. Subjective experience. Pay close to attention to the wording I use as I don't give many details.

Seeing will eventually be believing. Once made manifest, you won't be able to deny its plausibility. Seems one can save a lot of time skipping attempts to try to convince people and just get to the development.

But yeah, consciousness isn't that serious. You just have to think outside the box to begin making progress on it. Whether or not were in a simulation is immaterial. The word 'simulation' really loses its meaning once you peer deep into the constructs that underly the universe. What does that even mean and how, even if you discovered it was a simulation, would you alter it in any meaningful way. Don't you think the person who created it, given how amazing it is, had the wherewithal to implement safe-guards/alerts? Or even made universal laws that forever restricts you from certain things? It's better that you focus on how it works than trying to define it. It makes for good story telling but I'd rather just dig in, understand it, and make use of that understanding instead. Again, do you want to sit around philosophizing and dreaming about it all day long or do you want to start converting that understanding into something ground breaking?

P.S - A component of the research that was conducted centered heavily on physics/quantum physics. It is quite important to understand the 'environment' and its laws when working on AGI.

Re: Simulation, Consciousness, Existence (1998)

#35
post #31

My main problem with the simulated world argument is complexity. Take the Billiard Ball example[0]. This means to accurately simulate the universe you can't really get away with approximations. Under close enough scrutiny discrepancies in the simulation are discernible, and we can scrutinize it at the subatomic level. But to simulate the observable universe, how big would your computer need to be? How slowly would th…

We already run simulators of our universe with vastly lower resolution then reality, and they do tell us useful things about it.

Re: Simulation, Consciousness, Existence (1998)

#36
post #4

Morpheus from The Matrix: "What is real? How do you define 'real'? If you're talking about what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste and see, then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain." Doesn't feel like there's ultimately any way out of this line of reasoning. What would it take to prove to you that you are indeed not in a simulation of some kind? as the only methods of provi…

Not only that you can't know for sure that you're not living in a simulation, you actually can't surely tell that you existed before this point in time. Imagine that you are instantiated in a simulation with pre-installed memories that give you the illusion that you existed prior to this point. This line of thought is really old and goes back to Plato (see allegory of the cave) but formalized by Descartes (see evil g…

Not a creationist, but a common argument against the earth being only several thousand years old is that star light must have taken much longer to get here given c. However, the simulation of those photons could have begun in transit, as you say.

Re: Simulation, Consciousness, Existence (1998)

#37

Morpheus from The Matrix: "What is real? How do you define 'real'? If you're talking about what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste and see, then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain." Doesn't feel like there's ultimately any way out of this line of reasoning. What would it take to prove to you that you are indeed not in a simulation of some kind? as the only methods of provi…

Not everything that you cannot disprove should be believed to be true, or even taken seriously.

Re: Simulation, Consciousness, Existence (1998)

#38

Morpheus from The Matrix: "What is real? How do you define 'real'? If you're talking about what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste and see, then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain." Doesn't feel like there's ultimately any way out of this line of reasoning. What would it take to prove to you that you are indeed not in a simulation of some kind? as the only methods of provi…

But the argument for living in a simulation is parasitic on being outside of a simulation. We say that we could be inside a simulation because we notice that the physical world seems to support the possibility of incredibly detailed simulations which could be indistinguishable from what we experience now. But if we're in a simulation, none of that reasoning applies. In that case, the argument is undermined.

the dream is a simulation? we create also an "avatar" of us that is completely different from us like memory and personality. But when we wakeup we understand that was a dream, and also we can wakeup inside the dream (lucid dreaming)

Re: Simulation, Consciousness, Existence (1998)

#39
post #31

My main problem with the simulated world argument is complexity. Take the Billiard Ball example[0]. This means to accurately simulate the universe you can't really get away with approximations. Under close enough scrutiny discrepancies in the simulation are discernible, and we can scrutinize it at the subatomic level. But to simulate the observable universe, how big would your computer need to be? How slowly would th…

I absolutely agree. But... the quantum mechanical "it doesn't really have a state until you observe it" could make sense as the simulation optimizing by skipping the parts that nobody can see.

Re: Simulation, Consciousness, Existence (1998)

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A simulation is only dealing with form. It seems to me a sufficiently precise simulation would necessarily capture meaning. If meaning is critical to decision making and that decision making is precisely simulated, then the simulation must also capture meaning.

> It seems to me a sufficiently precise simulation would necessarily capture meaning. That is the very bone of contention here. > If meaning is critical to decision making. I don't believe it is in the general case. Our current crop of Go winning machines seem to indicate otherwise.

Within the context of Go, what meaning does the Go playing machine lack?
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