Live data from Hacker News

A truly decentralised P2P Insurance

hack.ether.camp

31–40 of 50 posts

Re: A truly decentralised P2P Insurance

#31
post #6

How can Ethereum-based insurance products ever be competitive? For an insurance smart contract to work, all the money must be tied up in the contract (otherwise, there would be no way to guarantee that you could be paid out). But in the real world, insurers don't just leave their money sitting uselessly in a pot, they put it to work, investing it. So the smart-contract based insurance is always going to be less effic…

You can add a feature that offers investments in DAO's

Re: A truly decentralised P2P Insurance

#32

What's stopping someone putting a lot of money on an insurance policy then calling in a fake bomb threat on the plane? Pretty low risk way to make money from anywhere in the world.

the total amount of payouts per flight is limited as well as premiums and individual payouts. there is a non-negligible legal risk of such action and the payout limits in the end will converge to the price of the risk someone is going to take.

Re: A truly decentralised P2P Insurance

#33
post #5

How is e.g. the flight delay insurance decentralized? According to [1] it uses a traditional API to fetch the delay data, which very much sounds like a trusted 3rd party. [1]: http://medium.com/@skarpischek/youll-love-to-be-late-for-dev...

it isn't yet. the current implementation relies on the flightstats API and oraclize.it to call the API from the contract. I think we are still far from truly decentralized applications, and it needs experiments like this to slowly get there. as a next step redundant data sources and oracles might help.

Re: A truly decentralised P2P Insurance

#34
post #6

How can Ethereum-based insurance products ever be competitive? For an insurance smart contract to work, all the money must be tied up in the contract (otherwise, there would be no way to guarantee that you could be paid out). But in the real world, insurers don't just leave their money sitting uselessly in a pot, they put it to work, investing it. So the smart-contract based insurance is always going to be less effic…

thanks, very good point. this is great feedback and a really valuable discussion for us. we need to have more experiments with decentralized applications and insurance markets to explore that. we are looking forward to address these questions with insurance and financial service providers.

Re: A truly decentralised P2P Insurance

#35
Interesting concept but I struggle with the practical aspects. The reasons for central underwriting authority are clear...

1. Economies of scale needed to deal with regulatory, dept. of insurance, etc.

2. Economies of scale needed to administer policies

3. Economies of scale needed to administer claims

4. Expertise needed in pricing and actuarial

In an ethereum based true P2P system the individual is more or less self insuring and re-insuring their risk via an ethereum contract.

I think there's something worth paying for to be able to say a financial institution is covering you. I have a hard time believing the financial saving for an individual is worth the trouble. I also have a hard time believing the regulatory and administration needs are met without some staff supporting the contract.

Re: A truly decentralised P2P Insurance

#36
post #32

What's stopping someone putting a lot of money on an insurance policy then calling in a fake bomb threat on the plane? Pretty low risk way to make money from anywhere in the world.

the total amount of payouts per flight is limited as well as premiums and individual payouts. there is a non-negligible legal risk of such action and the payout limits in the end will converge to the price of the risk someone is going to take.

The legal risk is zero for someone who is out of the jurisdiction of the US completely (eg in some developing country).

Ironically, your system is meant to help compensate people when delays to flights occur yet to me it looks like you've built something that strongly incentivises people to cause more disruption to flights.

Re: A truly decentralised P2P Insurance

#37
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the lower premiums would cancel out the amount that real world insurers can make. Though I kind of agree with you that having a bunch of money sitting there doing nothing is bad.

> ... cancel out... This assumes that investments made with premiums are precisely equal with the margin kept by the insurer. Considering the variety of insurers, insurance products, seasonal variation, etc. this is a pretty wild assumption. That said, insurers do make a profit on their income and make a profit on their investments. They may tell you that they have a negative combined ratio, but it's a misrepresentat…

I am a big fan of heyguevara, and happily disagree with you on regulatory approval and access to re-insurance markets: these need to be addressed, and we are happy to have discussions with insurance brokers and regulatory bodies to do that. as soon as those risks are reduced and some examples established, smart contracts will make it very easy for any group of people to start their own p2p insurance with their own parameters and rulesets instead of relying on less flexible central platforms.

Re: A truly decentralised P2P Insurance

#38
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The address given authority to invest the insurance float doesn't have to be controlled by a human—it can represent some other arrangement, for example a stake-voting investment scheme.

It doesn't matter how many hops there are between the insurance contract and the money, if the cash isn't sitting idle on the blockchain, the insurance contract cannot guarantee to pay it out.

Just like how if an insurance company has invested part of its float in bonds, it cannot guarantee to pay for all losses simultaneously... right?

I'm trying to understand what you think is the essential difference between an Ethereum-based insurance scheme and a traditional insurance scheme in this respect.

Re: A truly decentralised P2P Insurance

#39
post #7

Any example that this would be useful and most of all actually applicable to real-world? The example of air flight delay is already done (see: https://www.airhelp.com ) with much better payout. The problem I see on such "presentations" is that they focus on abstract ideas instead of taking a pragmatic approach of how to actually make it usable on a real use-case outside of the experimental playground. Sorry for the r…

But how is airhelp.com a P2P system? I had a look at their website and they look like all other flight-delay systems, just fees seem to be slightly lower (still 25%). I couldn't find anything regarding P2P on their website.

Re: A truly decentralised P2P Insurance

#40
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the total amount of payouts per flight is limited as well as premiums and individual payouts. there is a non-negligible legal risk of such action and the payout limits in the end will converge to the price of the risk someone is going to take.

The legal risk is zero for someone who is out of the jurisdiction of the US completely (eg in some developing country). Ironically, your system is meant to help compensate people when delays to flights occur yet to me it looks like you've built something that strongly incentivises people to cause more disruption to flights.

Finding the right balance of incentives needs some trial and error. The discussions are not new and well known e.g. with generic prediction markets like Augur or Gnosis.

I think we will find a way to deal with those issues. Experiments like these will help us (and society in general) to come to the right conclusions. Of course we should be careful not to cause too much harm on the way.

Also see https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/529o5p/flightdela... and the discussion there.

Post reply on HN