Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Enough with Basic Income

salon.thefamily.co

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 214 posts

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#31

Post by blahi »

newjersey wrote: post #15
teraflop wrote: post #8

> You have to fill in many papers, prove that you don’t have sufficient income or any valuable property, go through many humiliating and intrusive controls. If you want to earn (a small amount of) money without working, then you must endure it all. In most cases it is necessary to seek the help of a social worker to carry out the procedure in its entirety. Funny how the article zeroes in on this as a criticism of bas…

> You have to fill in many papers, prove that you don’t have sufficient income or any valuable property, go through many humiliating and intrusive controls. If you want to earn (a small amount of) money without working, then you must endure it all. In most cases it is necessary to seek the help of a social worker to carry out the procedure in its entirety. This is exactly the reason I want basic income. I want nobody…

And what happens in the very long term? What happens when kids are raised with the attitude that they are guaranteed to survive on basic income? What happens when their number grows? What happens when that large group feels that bare survival doesn't cut it any more and want more? What happens if the numbers actually don't pan out but scared politicians doon't want to give up power and cook the books for decades? Remember that after similar initiatives short and mid-term gains were huge, but in the long-term they lead to apathy, corruption and very uncompetitive economy.

There are two states in nature. You either grow or you shrink. You remove the incentive to grow and guess what happens next.

Or if you want to really start thinking hard, maybe you should ask yourself what happens when everybody has X in money and businesses raise their prices accordingly?

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#32

Post by totalcrepe »

The French program as quoted is nothing like basic income. I've seen quite a few people just need a few bucks. The longterm risk of that and the likelihood that if they didn't get the few bucks they would need permanent safety net was sometimes pretty high.

For example, I knew a vet in college who came very close to dropping out, where a few hundred bucks the safety net never knew he needed made all the difference. I can only imagine what percent of their lifetime writeoffs come from having these condescending "shutup, we know what you need" safety net systems.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#33

Post by at-fates-hands »

newjersey wrote: post #15
teraflop wrote: post #8

> You have to fill in many papers, prove that you don’t have sufficient income or any valuable property, go through many humiliating and intrusive controls. If you want to earn (a small amount of) money without working, then you must endure it all. In most cases it is necessary to seek the help of a social worker to carry out the procedure in its entirety. Funny how the article zeroes in on this as a criticism of bas…

> You have to fill in many papers, prove that you don’t have sufficient income or any valuable property, go through many humiliating and intrusive controls. If you want to earn (a small amount of) money without working, then you must endure it all. In most cases it is necessary to seek the help of a social worker to carry out the procedure in its entirety. This is exactly the reason I want basic income. I want nobody…

>> It is not like we can't afford it.

Have you looked at the US Economy lately?

(Jan 2016) Why 2016 keeps getting uglier for US economy - http://www.cnbc.com/2016/01/29/why-2016-keeps-getting-uglier...

(April 2016) Americans' confidence in economy at 2016 low - http://money.cnn.com/2016/04/28/news/economy/us-economic-con...

(June 2016) The next recession is already here—and there isn't much the Fed can do - http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/21/the-next-recession-is-already...

I'm all for a basic income for lower income families, but I'm not sure how routinely volatile our economy is, we really afford this long term. What happens when you put something like this in place, and then can't afford it? There's a long list of government programs already awash in waste and mismanagement. I'm not sure another program (which would have to take the place of other programs - WIC, TEFAP, HUD, etc) is really going to solve the problem.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#34

Post by brokencode »

saynsedit wrote: post #23
SmellTheGlove wrote: post #2

There are some good points in here. However, what I think the author misses is that we are within reach of a post-scarcity economy, at which point all of those historical economic references go out the window (since nearly all economic theory assumes scarcity). That possibility makes a UBI experiment very worthwhile to me. I don't think we're there today or anything like that, but it may be within our lifetimes that…

Some may argue we are already in a post-scarcity economy. Unfortunately virtual scarcity will persist for some time. This is because the economic system isn't organized enough to distribute all resources fairly and efficiently. As jobs decline (due to increased automation and export), the old way of distributing resources fairly fails, and virtual scarcity will increase. UBI seems like it can fill that gap but I worr…

Competition will continue to keep prices down. Just because people have a new source of income, doesn't mean they that will become more likely to buy overpriced goods.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#35

Post by jkot »

TillE wrote: post #29
jkot wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that would not be really basic income (which is unconditional). There would be second class of citizens. Something like controlled rent today.

I can't vote in Germany. I'm not a "second class of citizen", I'm literally not a citizen.

But you are "citizen enough" to pay taxes or receive social benefits. And some non-citizens can vote in Germany.

Anyway, by definition Basic Income is unconditional. Anyone who applies should get it.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#36

Post by wiz21c »

nobody talks about climate change here. That will affect us all..

he's right when pointing at lack of a political argument. But form me it's quite clear. The argument is : redistribution. I know it's a simplistic left-wing argument but wealth redistribution is what basic income is. And unfortunately it's way too simple. I'd prefer a complex system because it offers many places for negotiating redistribution.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#37

Post by justinmk »

SmellTheGlove wrote: post #2

There are some good points in here. However, what I think the author misses is that we are within reach of a post-scarcity economy, at which point all of those historical economic references go out the window (since nearly all economic theory assumes scarcity). That possibility makes a UBI experiment very worthwhile to me. I don't think we're there today or anything like that, but it may be within our lifetimes that…

> The main threats are overpopulation and politics, as tech seems to be ticking along quite nicely.

If [over]population is a factor, then "post-scarcity" is fiction.

This makes me think BI advocates are quietly assuming constraints such as "we'll discourage reproduction somehow"--while constantly mentioning how BI will be free of constraints.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#38

Post by k-mcgrady »

aminok wrote: post #30

Basic Income (aka universal welfare) is bullshit because it is authoritarian. It depends on throwing people who refuse to hand over a share of the currency they receive in private trade in prison, where they are confined like captive animals, so that the rest of the population is cowed into handing over the demanded amount. Likewise, the author's arguments for social welfare are bullshit: >There are two reasons why t…

>> "it is authoritarian. It depends on throwing people who refuse to hand over a share of the currency they receive in private trade in prison"

If that's what you believe then any tax would meet the criteria and you would have to consider almost every government in the world authoritarian. Is that the case?

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#39

Post by transfire »

> So enough already. Grow up now, study history, and then join the liberal politicians and union activists (and some Entrepreneurs) who, while you’re playing around with that simplistic idea, are waging political battles and trying hard to imagine a new social state for the digital age.

Read as "continue to serve the oligarchs who pretend to care, pandering their endless bullshit solutions that serve only their own interests".

Nicolas Colin eat your own.

Post reply on HN