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Getting to Bootstrap v4

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Re: Getting to Bootstrap v4

#31

Post by niftich »

We just had had a thread about the new v4 Alpha 4 [1], in which several people reacted incredulously [2][3][4] at why developers would feel pressured to upgrade from v3 to v4 for existing projects.

This news, not even 24 hours later, confirms others' and my fears [5], that v4's arrival will mean the cessation of releases -- including bugfix and maintenance releases -- on the v3 line, effectively making it abandoned.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12432136 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12432546 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12433663 [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12432666 [5] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12432915

Re: Getting to Bootstrap v4

#32

Post by seangrogg »

porker wrote: post #26
emidln wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps you should chip in some time or dollars to help maintain a release version. The great thing about open source is that if you care enough, you can help yourself (either directly through code maintenance or indirectly via funding someone else). The only unprofessional thing is the entitlement to someone else's time.

> Perhaps you should chip in some time or dollars to help maintain a release version. The great thing about open source is that if you care enough, you can help yourself (either directly through code maintenance or indirectly via funding someone else). I wish there was an easy way to crowdfund maintained releases. I've been burned by 3 frameworks moving on with no backwards-compatibility; that was worth money to myse…

While it's not an exact match, patreon.com more or less does this in letting people crowdsource one-time/monthly payments to a person in exchange for their works. I know several musicians, youtubers, and social media personalities that have used it to varying degrees of success.

Re: Getting to Bootstrap v4

#33

Post by josteink »

0x0 wrote: post #30

"Bootstrap 3 is no longer supported"... And no final bootstrap 4 release yet. So, there is NO supported stable bootstrap versions at all right now? :-/

If Google taught us anything, it should be that it's nothing wrong with being in perpetual beta.

Not sure if I mean that sarcastically or not.

Re: Getting to Bootstrap v4

#34

Post by emgee3 »

toxican wrote: post #20
jasonkester wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the attitude I describe above. Why does Bootstrap need maintaining ? It's a pile of CSS and a few scripts to show and hide things. And it has had three years of effort put in to make sure everything works mostly as it should. That's not going to change. We're just not going to get anything new. It was fine for production use yesterday. What has changed that makes it less fine today?

Judging by the backlog of bugs they wiped out or moved over to v4, clearly it does need maintaining. CSS and JS both always find a way to behave oddly in fringe cases, so yes they do need bug fixes here and there. I absolutely understand that if it was fine for production yesterday, it's fine for today. And I'm not going to let this stop me from using v3. I just think it's rather unprofessional or at least hasty to d…

I'm not disagreeing, but one thing that makes this different is you can easily fix most Bootstrap bugs by overriding it with some custom CSS, or just not use that class. It's different than some deeply integrated code that you have to patch and maintain.

Re: Getting to Bootstrap v4

#35

Post by niftich »

emgee3 wrote: post #34
toxican wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Judging by the backlog of bugs they wiped out or moved over to v4, clearly it does need maintaining. CSS and JS both always find a way to behave oddly in fringe cases, so yes they do need bug fixes here and there. I absolutely understand that if it was fine for production yesterday, it's fine for today. And I'm not going to let this stop me from using v3. I just think it's rather unprofessional or at least hasty to d…

I'm not disagreeing, but one thing that makes this different is you can easily fix most Bootstrap bugs by overriding it with some custom CSS, or just not use that class. It's different than some deeply integrated code that you have to patch and maintain.

I fail to a meaningful distinction between:

"you can easily fix most Bootstrap bugs by overriding it with some custom CSS" vs. "you can easily fix most [imperative/OO/functional programming language's library] bugs by overriding it with some custom [code]"

and

"just not use that CSS class" vs. "just not use that [method/function/class]"

Re: Getting to Bootstrap v4

#36

Post by jnem »

jasonkester wrote: post #4

Seems entirely reasonable. The response to this highlights something I've noticed watching Open Source stuff for a while: this attitude that a piece of software can never simply be finished , but that it must constantly be changing to be alive. This is a good example of that. Bootstrap 3 has been out for a while and it mostly works for the things it was designed to work for. If you look hard enough, you can find bugs…

Art is never completed, only abandoned.

Re: Getting to Bootstrap v4

#37

Post by emgee3 »

niftich wrote: post #35
emgee3 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not disagreeing, but one thing that makes this different is you can easily fix most Bootstrap bugs by overriding it with some custom CSS, or just not use that class. It's different than some deeply integrated code that you have to patch and maintain.

I fail to a meaningful distinction between: "you can easily fix most Bootstrap bugs by overriding it with some custom CSS" vs. "you can easily fix most [imperative/OO/functional programming language's library] bugs by overriding it with some custom [code]" and "just not use that CSS class" vs. "just not use that [method/function/class]"

It might be the same, it might not.

An contrived example: let's say an unfixed Bootstrap 3 bug is that there is a formatting error when rendering "div.jumbotron > h1 > span.label > small". You could replace the last small with you own css class and be done.

Contrast that to a bug in Angular, for example, that enabled a XSS bug. You'd want to upgrade Angular, instead of manually patching or adding a workaround to all your forms.

That's what I was thinking, at least.

Re: Getting to Bootstrap v4

#39

Post by whamlastxmas »

niftich wrote: post #31

We just had had a thread about the new v4 Alpha 4 [1], in which several people reacted incredulously [2][3][4] at why developers would feel pressured to upgrade from v3 to v4 for existing projects. This news, not even 24 hours later, confirms others' and my fears [5], that v4's arrival will mean the cessation of releases -- including bugfix and maintenance releases -- on the v3 line, effectively making it abandoned.…

Nothing stopping you or anyone else from keeping it up to date. I think it's silly to have these expectations from people creating free software for the world.

Re: Getting to Bootstrap v4

#40

Post by niftich »

whamlastxmas wrote: post #39
niftich wrote: post #31

We just had had a thread about the new v4 Alpha 4 [1], in which several people reacted incredulously [2][3][4] at why developers would feel pressured to upgrade from v3 to v4 for existing projects. This news, not even 24 hours later, confirms others' and my fears [5], that v4's arrival will mean the cessation of releases -- including bugfix and maintenance releases -- on the v3 line, effectively making it abandoned.…

Nothing stopping you or anyone else from keeping it up to date. I think it's silly to have these expectations from people creating free software for the world.

While I don't entirely disagree with your premise, this oft-repeated argument misses some key points.

Every user is free to make changes themselves but upstreaming them to the 'official' repo won't work, because the devs have decided they've moved on. Everyone is free to maintain a publicly-accessible fork, but without community coordination, the forks will diverge, unless widespread community consensus is reached about which one is the preferred survivor repo. Essentially, to solve the problem, merely dumping code isn't sufficient; you must also build a community.

Hence when a project's leadership decides they will no longer release/maintain/fix/accept-pull-requests-for a particular version, all of us lose the single most logical place where collaboration about that particular version happens. This is what I lament, not that woe-be-unto-me, I-have-to-fix-it-myself.

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