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Are PhD Students Irrational?

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Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#31

Post by nickpsecurity »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #6
nickff wrote: post #4

Should universities not be held accountable for the fraud that they have perpetrated on their students? The tobacco companies were taken to court because their products had long-term consequences which they persistently minimized, while continuing to push product; it seems universities have done the same. If anything, the universities have better, clearer data than the tobacco companies, and the universities have far…

You should read the article more closely. It advocates exactly holding universities accountable, and in particular, holding universities accountable for deliberately casualizing academic (ie: PhD-holding) labor by converting tenured professorships into adjunct positions, even while expanding enrollments and using the tuition money to hire more and more administrators. It would be more accurate to say that universitie…

Off-topic, whatever happened to DECA? Link is dead.

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#32

Post by gohrt »

sjg007 wrote: post #22

A PhD is a great way to immigrate and this drives down PhD stipends. A PhD is a great way to continue learning.. And good for the overall economy because companies rely on math, science and engineering to produce products.

Companies need very few PhDs in math, science and engineering -- bachelors and masters do fine.

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#33

Post by catskul2 »

sn41 wrote: post #13

I don't see why being irrational is bad. A "labour of love" is precisely something that does not obey the law of diminishing returns. Passion and interest are much more sustaining and fulfilling than a job in the finance sector just because it is highly paid. I think "rationality" is a stupid assumption, often wrong. Of course, people need more money, but a lot of people are also willing to make sacrifices for someth…

It's not necessarily bad if you can afford to be irrational.

If you can't, the it's bad for obvious reasons.

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#35

Post by throw_away_777 »

xapata wrote: post #26
throw_away_777 wrote: post #17

In my experience people don't enter into PhDs expecting to make a lot of money. And STEM PhDs get paid, so it isn't as if we accumulate debt. Often times a PhD is the only route to doing what you love. It isn't possible to do academic research in industry. Personally when I entered into my PhD I really liked that the research I was doing had a noble purpose. On the other hand, a PhD is way too long. And if you stop a…

There was a time when a failed postdoc was in a very depressing financial situation. Corporations didn't want to hire a PhD, because they were overqualified and likely had some anti-authoritarian streak that led them to attempt academia. STEM PhDs are more in demand these days, but some still don't know it and need encouragement (and sometimes a little help) transitioning to industry.

I agree with your sentiment, and think that postdocs are the real problem with academia currently. Besides the low pay, being a graduate student is not a bad job - you get good job security, interesting problems, good mission, and can somewhat choose your boss. A postdoc is a terrible, soul-crushing, low-pay job. At least for the physics postdocs I have seen - I have heard that in the humanities a postdoc is actually a highly sought after position.

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#36

Post by geebee »

Hard to say. The RAND institute did a study concluding that there is no meaningful shortage of STEM graduate degrees, that the aversion to these degrees, to the extent it exists, is a rational response to completion times, attrition rates, job prospects, and salaries when compared to other professional degree programs such as MBA, law, or medicine. However, this wasn't quite the same as concluding that it is irrational to pursue these degrees, just that we should stop scratching our heads and wondering why more people don't pursue them.

Payscale has an interesting ranking of graduate degrees by program, which is more useful than raking all holders of a particular graduate degree together.

http://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/grad?page=49

Unfortunately, it doesn't break out MS and PhD holders by subject studied. So while you do get to see a specific ranking for an MBA or JD holder from UCLA or MIT, you only get overall salary info for PhDs from MIT, not PhD in Computer Science from MIT vs Electrical Engineering from Berkeley. That would be far more useful.

As it stands, a PhD doesn't show up until spot 29 on this list, but then again, a PhD in CS might, so hard to say.

To me, the attrition rate from PhD programs is an under appreciated aspect of this discussion. A lot of people from elite Law, MBA, and MD programs are floored when they hear the attrition rate from PhD programs. Seriously, the attrition rate form an elite law or med school tends to be well below one half of one percent. Attrition rates form elite engineering and science PhD programs range from 35%-50%.

In any case, I'm always glad to see this discussed. The only people who seem to think there is a "shortage" or STEM graduate students are people who have a financial interest in hiring STEM graduate students. Almost every other analysis concludes that people with the freedom to choose their career in the US (free of visa restrictions that limit their career choices) are largely acting rationally by pursuing other graduate degree programs (or no graduate degree program).

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#37

Post by sjg007 »

gohrt wrote: post #32
sjg007 wrote: post #22

A PhD is a great way to immigrate and this drives down PhD stipends. A PhD is a great way to continue learning.. And good for the overall economy because companies rely on math, science and engineering to produce products.

Companies need very few PhDs in math, science and engineering -- bachelors and masters do fine.

My company hires tons of PhDs.

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#38

Post by hardtke »

sjg007 wrote: post #22

A PhD is a great way to immigrate and this drives down PhD stipends. A PhD is a great way to continue learning.. And good for the overall economy because companies rely on math, science and engineering to produce products.

To further this point, it is much faster to get a green card if you possess a Ph.D. rather than a Master's degree. Not only can you apply for the outstanding researcher category, but I believe you also get priority for the regular process. For Master's holders, the process in 5+ years now.

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#39

Post by sjg007 »

nickff wrote: post #15
red_blobs wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What ever happened to personal responsibility? It's something that needs to be instilled in our youth before they ever get to college. I know at least 3 people that knowingly got PHDs in majors that will not amount to any sort of high-paying job. They chose to do this and it's not really the job of the university to determine the market value of their degrees.

Those arguments could all be used against the tobbaco company lawsuits too; I am asking what makes them different.

They probably aren't that different.. For profit schools are going thru the ringer now precisely because they don't deliver an education. Could a PhD program or law school face the same scrutiny? Possibly. It will be interesting to see how the legal arguments against the for profits unfolds.

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#40

Post by nevdka »

nickff wrote: post #4

Should universities not be held accountable for the fraud that they have perpetrated on their students? The tobacco companies were taken to court because their products had long-term consequences which they persistently minimized, while continuing to push product; it seems universities have done the same. If anything, the universities have better, clearer data than the tobacco companies, and the universities have far…

The observable consequences of PhDs are higher salaries and lower unemployment than Masters, Bachelors or lower [0]. PhD students also spend 'the best years of their lives' working deeply on something they care about. Where's the fraud?

[0] http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

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