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French police make woman remove clothing on Nice beach following burkini ban

theguardian.com

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Re: French police make woman remove clothing on Nice beach following burkini ban

#31

Post by mywittyname »

harperlee wrote: post #30
mywittyname wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Armies need resources; people are resources. So the argument isn't, "X is what the enemy wants," it's, "X allows the enemy to recruit more troops." Thinking like chess -- you'd probably avoid moves that gave the opponent more pieces. Especially when those piece spawn by your king.

I was speaking abstractly, not about the OP theme - a logical fallacy is a logical fallacy, even if it provides a useful heuristic. Even if the opponent wants you to do something, it might be the best for you. Think about the game of chicken [1] in game theory. If the opponent puts on a blindfold and makes a precommitment, they want you to swerve - that's what they want! But it would be foolish not to swerve and cras…

But the post you replied said, they want this to happen because it helps recruitment.

It's only a logical fallacy because you've decided to ignore the predicate statement ("this was a strategy for recruitment") and focus on the implication of it ("extremist groups supposedly want exactly this to happen").

The crux of the OP's argument is that aiding in the recruitment of ISIS is not in the best interest of the French, yet that's what this policy is doing.

Re: French police make woman remove clothing on Nice beach following burkini ban

#32

Post by mywittyname »

spriggan3 wrote: post #29
mywittyname wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, like the fundamental right to wear saggy pants in some american cities ... where they are outlawed. Actually, our (lower) courts have ruled that these laws are unconstitutional. So yes, Americans have the fundamental freedom to wear burkinis and baggy pants. So, while small, local governments are free to enact repressive laws, Americans have the luxury of being protected by pro-liberty groups that will come in…

Your pro-liberty groups apparently didn't prevent America from becoming this racist nation. Take care of your black community instead of boasting about your moral superiority. We don't kill black people for the sake of it here.

I think I see where our difference is: I don't support the moral atrocities that occur in my country and actively protest them. While you do support the oppression of others, then justify it by claiming that worse things happen in other countries.

Re: French police make woman remove clothing on Nice beach following burkini ban

#33

Post by spriggan3 »

mywittyname wrote: post #32
spriggan3 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your pro-liberty groups apparently didn't prevent America from becoming this racist nation. Take care of your black community instead of boasting about your moral superiority. We don't kill black people for the sake of it here.

I think I see where our difference is: I don't support the moral atrocities that occur in my country and actively protest them. While you do support the oppression of others, then justify it by claiming that worse things happen in other countries.

> While you do support the oppression of others,

I never said I supported anything. On the other hand you are quick at forgetting our own moral bankruptcy when it comes to the treatment of minorities in your own country,especially black people. It's easier to point fingers at France than to fix the situation in US. And we don't have the death penalty either. Only barbaric countries allow their states to put its citizens to death. You're not even the pot calling the kettle black, you're worse than that.

Re: French police make woman remove clothing on Nice beach following burkini ban

#35

Post by tmptmp »

astanway wrote: post #18
tmptmp wrote: post #15

This is a good news from a very fundamental aspect in our history and for our future too. Islam with its barbaric, medieval, vicious ideology (e.g. kaafirs are against Allah, Muhammad is above any criticism, apostates should be killed, extreme injustice inflicted on Muslim women and so on) is at crossroads with the freedom loving, liberal and secular western world. The religions should have no place in modern public…

"But religions want to control every aspect of human life." You mean like controlling what kind of bathing suits people can and can't wear in public?

Yes, you are right. The ban on Burqa/clothing should not be a priority.

The ban on Burqa in France is a knee-jerk reactionary measure taken by the frightened French society which doesn't have a clue that their real fight should be against the evil ideology of Islam and that burqa-forced-on-women is but a small piece of that evil ideology.

Now the Islam apologists will take undue advantage of this ban by citing western ideals like "freedom of choice" and that "burqa is a choice made by Muslim women" and so on.

Hence, the French and western society should realize that they must not only stand fast and firm behind people like Charlie Hebdo editors and the cartoonists who drew Muhammad's cartoons but also encourage them and other people to do so again and again. The western society should tell the Muslims in unequivocal terms that "the Muslims should learn to get offended and also learn the more civilized ways of living in the world. That Allah, Muhammad, Islam and Islamic practices are a proper target of ridicule, criticism and humor. That Quran is not last word here in the west. That Charlie Hebdo and other cartoonists are our people and we can't let their freedom get trampled just because Muslims think their feelings/sentiments get hurt."

So, yes, you are right that the French action is more in line with the religions. But we must remember that this is a start of the (potentially long drawn) fight against the evil ideology of Islam and burqa (and women's clothing) is nonetheless a significant part that helps us bring out certain evil aspects of this vicious ideology in public discourse.

BTW, you should realize that despite this ban, the French society is far from controlling most aspect of human life like the way Islam (or any other religion) does.

Edit: added last para (BTW...).

Re: French police make woman remove clothing on Nice beach following burkini ban

#36

Post by sctb »

spriggan3 wrote: post #29
mywittyname wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, like the fundamental right to wear saggy pants in some american cities ... where they are outlawed. Actually, our (lower) courts have ruled that these laws are unconstitutional. So yes, Americans have the fundamental freedom to wear burkinis and baggy pants. So, while small, local governments are free to enact repressive laws, Americans have the luxury of being protected by pro-liberty groups that will come in…

Your pro-liberty groups apparently didn't prevent America from becoming this racist nation. Take care of your black community instead of boasting about your moral superiority. We don't kill black people for the sake of it here.

The guidelines ask that you comment civilly and substantively, and this applies especially in controversial discussions. It's not OK to make such accusations of an entire country in a deliberately inflammatory way.
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