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Who’s the First Person in History Whose Name We Know? (2015)

phenomena.nationalgeographic.com

31–40 of 136 posts

Re: Who’s the First Person in History Whose Name We Know? (2015)

#31
post #14

The first recorded writer probably was a male, indeed. That's because most ancient societies were blatantly misogynistic. It's unlikely women were afforded the opportunity to be educated or trained in the scholastic, monastic, or financial professions which were most likely to leave some form of written record. So, yeah, the odds, based on historical predicates, are that the first recorded human's name was a male nam…

I just don't understand all the guess work in the article.

Based on the historical record to date, the first written records appeared in Mesopotamia, and it has long been understood writing developed out of economic need.

Further, we have a vast records on the people and culture of ancient Mesopotamia. We know it was a patriarchal society. Their religious texts specifically define the stages of a women's life as: "I am daughter, I am bride, I am spouse, I am housekeeper". Therefore, I don't think it makes one sexist to look at this particular society through a sexist lens.

That said, the historical record includes literary works written by women in ancient Mesopotamia, though to my knowledge none of these women were merchants or traders, but royalty and high priestesses. Further, there is no shortage of women authors from other ancient societies either, but we know they came later.

Since looking beyond the historical record is all guess work anyway, because the record points to the first writings being for contracts/receipts/economic necessity, it could be that marriages may have likely been the first "transactions" to be recorded (this would include probably both the bride and grooms names, as well as the brides price and the bride-groom price). My thought is these transactions simply would have been considered the most important in that society and applied to the greatest number of people. Going full circle to the sexist thing, many of the marriage contracts we do have from Mesopotamia include clauses guaranteeing the bride was a virgin and we know if that was question the women had to appear before the courts (though these are later in time too, after Hammurabi's Law was written).

And although humor is frowned upon here, since everyone is taking a jab at the historical inaccuracies of the cartoons, why has no one questioned why our good friend Kushim is looking at an iPhone in the last picture?

Re: Who’s the First Person in History Whose Name We Know? (2015)

#33
post #6

Adam & Eve ;-)

God brought the world into being in 4004 BC. This article has a tablet from 5000 BC, so it looks like Kushim is indeed older than Adam'n'Eve :)

You misread that a little. It says 3200 BCE (which is about 5000 years ago), not 5000 BCE.

Re: Who’s the First Person in History Whose Name We Know? (2015)

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first recorded writer probably was a male, indeed. That's because most ancient societies were blatantly misogynistic. Actually, my understanding is that the emerging reality is more interesting. Pre-agricultural hunter-gatherer societies were non-patriarchal and patriarchal societies only later became the norm with the rise of warlike/raiding and settled agricultural societies which co-evolved and co-depended on…

What evidence is there of matriarchy, and how is that defined? I think you're right that today a popular theory among anthropologists is that agriculture led to many inequalities, but like all things ancient, there just isn't much data for anthropologists to draw conclusions from.

> agriculture led to many inequalities

Given the starkly different physical strengths between the genders, it's hard to believe that gender roles did not exist before agriculture.

Re: Who’s the First Person in History Whose Name We Know? (2015)

#35
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's actually not true. There's great evidence for the fact that hunter-gatherer societies had a fairly good distribution of gender power. It is only with the advent of "civilization", i.e. agriculture, that we find great power differentials, including the power of men over women. I add that your indignation seems rather misguided. If "male-oriented power dynamics" could so easily take charge, how on earth can be c…

> It is only with the advent of "civilization", i.e. agriculture, that we find great power differentials, including the power of men over women That is exactly what I'm saying. Do you somehow contend that hunter-gatherers societies are more likely to have left written records that have survived to today?

You're trying to make some kind of argument about what is likely to happen for a single data point defined only by the exceptional circumstances that surround it. More importantly, it doesn't matter what you think is more likely, because there's no way for you to use that information to make a meaningful decision.

Re: Who’s the First Person in History Whose Name We Know? (2015)

#37
post #14

The first recorded writer probably was a male, indeed. That's because most ancient societies were blatantly misogynistic. It's unlikely women were afforded the opportunity to be educated or trained in the scholastic, monastic, or financial professions which were most likely to leave some form of written record. So, yeah, the odds, based on historical predicates, are that the first recorded human's name was a male nam…

> the opportunity to be educated or trained in the scholastic, monastic, or financial professions

Isn't the better question who invented those things?

I mean we are looking for the first one, which is likely to be the person who invented it. Males and Females have an equal opportunity here.

> But not necessarily (or even likely) because of the author's claim that males seem to be more prone to be early adopters.

Do Males invent things more often than Females or not? That's the question.

> because of the male-oriented power dynamics

Who created those dynamics? Why was it a male and not a female?

You are arguing about a world where men already "won" and prevent females from doing things.

But the question you should be addressing is an earlier one: Why did men "win" in the first place?

Re: Who’s the First Person in History Whose Name We Know? (2015)

#38
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what evidence Archaeological evidence Evidence from literate civilizations writing about their uncivilized neighbors, which goes back to the earliest known works Evidence from writers encountering such societies up to the modern day, although they're almost extinct outside of the deep Amazon and the like. Logical conclusions - without a food surplus, there is no class system and other results

> Logical conclusions - without a food surplus, there is no class system and other results Even hunter-gatherers have chiefs and elders.

> Even hunter-gatherers have chiefs and elders.

Hunter-gatherer bands do not have chiefs. Looking at the Wikipedia article for "Tribal chief" it says "Historically, tribal societies represent an intermediate stage between the band society of the Paleolithic stage and civilization with centralized, super-regional government based in cities." I couldn't put it better.

Even with regards to Indian chiefs, and it's not hard to see how there are misconceptions about them if they're still referred to as "Indians", modern anthropology acknowledges that European notions about Indian bands and tribes in the 15th and 16th century were often wrong. Europeans saw parallels of European society in the New World which weren't there (of course there were different kinds of societies in the Americas, from Montezuma's Aztec empire, to humter gatherer bands).

Re: Who’s the First Person in History Whose Name We Know? (2015)

#39
post #14

The first recorded writer probably was a male, indeed. That's because most ancient societies were blatantly misogynistic. It's unlikely women were afforded the opportunity to be educated or trained in the scholastic, monastic, or financial professions which were most likely to leave some form of written record. So, yeah, the odds, based on historical predicates, are that the first recorded human's name was a male nam…

The first recorded writer probably was a male, indeed. That's because most ancient societies were blatantly misogynistic. Actually, my understanding is that the emerging reality is more interesting. Pre-agricultural hunter-gatherer societies were non-patriarchal and patriarchal societies only later became the norm with the rise of warlike/raiding and settled agricultural societies which co-evolved and co-depended on…

> Pre-agricultural hunter-gatherer societies were non-patriarchal

We don't know that, and probably will never know. The problem is that those societies left little that we can use to learn about them.

Our main source of information of our hunter-gatherer ancestors is often modern hunter-gatherers, but they are very likely to be different than the ancient ones. Two major differences are (1) the modern ones are in contact with modern societies, and (2) the land they live on is not random, it's land agriculturalists didn't decide to occupy, and has some specific characteristics (mainly that it is poor).

It's also very possible that there isn't a single truth. Hunter-gatherers existed for a long time across a great many locations. They may have had a large variety of cultures.

In support of that, we do have evidence of the opposite of your claim, too: hunter-gatherers that fight wars to capture women, for example.

Re: Who’s the First Person in History Whose Name We Know? (2015)

#40
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first recorded writer probably was a male, indeed. That's because most ancient societies were blatantly misogynistic. Actually, my understanding is that the emerging reality is more interesting. Pre-agricultural hunter-gatherer societies were non-patriarchal and patriarchal societies only later became the norm with the rise of warlike/raiding and settled agricultural societies which co-evolved and co-depended on…

> Pre-agricultural hunter-gatherer societies were non-patriarchal We don't know that, and probably will never know. The problem is that those societies left little that we can use to learn about them. Our main source of information of our hunter-gatherer ancestors is often modern hunter-gatherers, but they are very likely to be different than the ancient ones. Two major differences are (1) the modern ones are in cont…

> Our main source of information of our hunter-gatherer ancestors is often modern hunter-gatherers, but they are very likely to be different than the ancient ones. Two major differences are (1) the modern ones are in contact with modern societies, and (2) the land they live on is not random, it's land agriculturalists didn't decide to occupy, and has some specific characteristics (mainly that it is poor).

There are also a whole bunch we've run into that were largely isolated until recently in Australia and the pacific. How many of them are matriarchal?

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