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The Conjoined Triangles of Senior-Level Development

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Re: The Conjoined Triangles of Senior-Level Development

#31

Post by ovatsug25 »

ap22213 wrote: post #27
careersuicide wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly I hope that that regulation never happens. It sounds like a dystopian nightmare to me. The biggest reason I became a programmer, besides the fact that I really enjoy programming, is that there was no one to tell me I couldn't become one. Growing up I wanted to be all sorts of things only to find out there were entrenched gatekeepers and a multitude of of barriers to each profession. For whatever reason jumpin…

But, on the other hand, companies are throwing away countless dollars on bad software. The problem is that it's relatively easy to write code to make something look somewhat functional, but it's a different level to complete it. The mistakes of the quick approaches take time to show, and then it becomes too late. It takes way more time and money to fix the issues, later. This has been a debate that's been going on fo…

Health care in the US blows through cash and often gets poorer results. Regulation does not a great industry make.

Re: The Conjoined Triangles of Senior-Level Development

#32

Post by hackits »

ap22213 wrote: post #27
careersuicide wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly I hope that that regulation never happens. It sounds like a dystopian nightmare to me. The biggest reason I became a programmer, besides the fact that I really enjoy programming, is that there was no one to tell me I couldn't become one. Growing up I wanted to be all sorts of things only to find out there were entrenched gatekeepers and a multitude of of barriers to each profession. For whatever reason jumpin…

But, on the other hand, companies are throwing away countless dollars on bad software. The problem is that it's relatively easy to write code to make something look somewhat functional, but it's a different level to complete it. The mistakes of the quick approaches take time to show, and then it becomes too late. It takes way more time and money to fix the issues, later. This has been a debate that's been going on fo…

Going to play the devil's advocate here in regards to 'juniors' disregarding the wisdom and experience of 'seniors'. Maybe the advice, experience you're giving is not backed up with any evidence? They may be taking a analytical and evidence based approach and simply choosing between you're advice or a celebrity tweeter as both lacking any evidence and thus being both equal. Possibly the silver bullet gives them a upper hand of using the latest marketing trends for reciter's to land their next job that pays 10K more?

I find it a bit of a juxtaposition that on one hand you're undecided about more engineering approaches and certification to building software. Then on the other hand you're frustrated that your advice or experience is not valued? To me it seems like you've answered your own question why your advice isn't valued by hip new guys.

Re: The Conjoined Triangles of Senior-Level Development

#33

Post by jasode »

jbandela1 wrote: post #7

I liked a lot of the article until I got to >Our hiring “secret sauce” largely stems from the fact that it seems to take significantly less time for someone with leadership and community skills to develop technical skills than the other way around. I’m seeing a large number of people who graduated from code bootcamps 3 and even 2 years ago now handily and gracefully filling the role of senior developer. This statemen…

>This statement makes me concerned that they have greatly devalued technical skills. [...] When technical ability is devalued so much in a company,

I'm not going to justify their thinking but I'll attempt to explain where it probably comes from.

The context for their perspective is crucial. Notice that their assertion for "less time to develop technical skills" is followed by a sentence praising graduates of "code bootcamps". They also prominently espouse Ember.js[1].

To make sense of that, we can (roughly) divide programmers into two groups: (1) CRUD LOB Line-Of-Business (2) algorithmic/embedded

(1) is programming the enterprisey, forms & fields, "back office" apps. It was COBOL, dBASE/Clipper, Visual Basic, Microsoft Access, C# Winforms, 4GLs like Oracle Forms & SAP ABAP, and now Javascript frameworks such as Ember.js/Angularjs. Basically, slapping a client GUI in front of a database backend. Whether that client GUI technology is Visual Basic, or mobile phone Javascipt, or iOS Swift app... that choice is more about whatever zeitgeist of programming you happen to be living in rather than any inherent difficulty levels between the technologies. The idea is to take the high-level frameworks+libraries and glue them together to deliver value to the business.

(2) is programming of realtime kernel schedulers, complex distributed computing algorithms, search engines, database storage engines, machine learning, ray tracing graphics and physics engines for video games, audio DSP, traversing graph nodes, control theory for drones and Mars Rover, etc. This would be more "engineering" type of coding rather than "integration/glue" coding. Typical programmers we'd think of in this group would be Jeff Dean (Google MapReduce/Tensorflow), John Carmac (Doom), Fabrice Bellard (ffmpeg).

The programmers in group(2) wouldn't say it's easy to take "leaders" and add programming skills to them. However, that sentiment is often expressed by group(1) programmers. I'm not saying it's the "right" philosophy but it's an observation I've seen repeatedly. The CRUD programming is often seen as just a longer more elaborate version of programming the Tivo / thermostat / lawn sprinkler system. It doesn't seem like group(1) is "devaluing" themselves but instead, they honestly just think "programming skill" isn't really a big deal.

[1]http://frontside.io/ember-consulting/

Re: The Conjoined Triangles of Senior-Level Development

#34

Post by hackits »

nzoschke wrote: post #24
jbandela1 wrote: post #7

I liked a lot of the article until I got to >Our hiring “secret sauce” largely stems from the fact that it seems to take significantly less time for someone with leadership and community skills to develop technical skills than the other way around. I’m seeing a large number of people who graduated from code bootcamps 3 and even 2 years ago now handily and gracefully filling the role of senior developer. This statemen…

Because in software we build platforms that let the new developers stand on the shoulders of giants. With Rails you can learn and build a web app in weeks. With AWS you can learn cloud architecture in months. Spend two years focusing on the right tech, get sufficient depth, and you are an expert. There are also infinite resources to help with this from books to blog posts to a culture of mentorsship in the work place…

Medicine you could kill a the patient. Law you could send a innocent man to jail.

Re: The Conjoined Triangles of Senior-Level Development

#35

Post by ap22213 »

ovatsug25 wrote: post #31
ap22213 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, on the other hand, companies are throwing away countless dollars on bad software. The problem is that it's relatively easy to write code to make something look somewhat functional, but it's a different level to complete it. The mistakes of the quick approaches take time to show, and then it becomes too late. It takes way more time and money to fix the issues, later. This has been a debate that's been going on fo…

Health care in the US blows through cash and often gets poorer results. Regulation does not a great industry make.

I'm not a proponent of blind regulation, and actually, I prefer less regulation, generally. But, do you have evidence to back up your implicit claim that less regulation yields better results?

I ask that with complete curiosity and humility - my perception is of experts telling me for decades that awesomeness is attainable with more deregulation. And, when awesome doesn't come, they say that it's because we didn't deregulate enough. Then, they ask for more.

But, I truly want to know if my perceptions are off - i.e. changes could be happening slowly enough that I don't see the immediate results.

Re: The Conjoined Triangles of Senior-Level Development

#36

Post by poikniok »

uola wrote: post #29
careersuicide wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly I hope that that regulation never happens. It sounds like a dystopian nightmare to me. The biggest reason I became a programmer, besides the fact that I really enjoy programming, is that there was no one to tell me I couldn't become one. Growing up I wanted to be all sorts of things only to find out there were entrenched gatekeepers and a multitude of of barriers to each profession. For whatever reason jumpin…

The alternative solution is what we have today when large tech companies prefer to hire people from high status schools.

And under an accreditation system they would not? I find that very hard to believe.

Re: The Conjoined Triangles of Senior-Level Development

#37

Post by ap22213 »

hackits wrote: post #32
ap22213 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, on the other hand, companies are throwing away countless dollars on bad software. The problem is that it's relatively easy to write code to make something look somewhat functional, but it's a different level to complete it. The mistakes of the quick approaches take time to show, and then it becomes too late. It takes way more time and money to fix the issues, later. This has been a debate that's been going on fo…

Going to play the devil's advocate here in regards to 'juniors' disregarding the wisdom and experience of 'seniors'. Maybe the advice, experience you're giving is not backed up with any evidence? They may be taking a analytical and evidence based approach and simply choosing between you're advice or a celebrity tweeter as both lacking any evidence and thus being both equal. Possibly the silver bullet gives them a upp…

Honestly, it's difficult to back things with evidence in this field. Ever try to get someone to read a paper on software engineering methods? Before one can get them to understand the evidence or even look at the data, they've already whipped together another couple thousand lines of code to demonstrate the opposite.

Look, I'm definitely not a top %1 (or even %10) architect. But, I have had enough successes under my belt that it's statistically improbable that I don't know what I'm talking about. However, my experience is usually discounted because 'times change, and old ideas aren't relevant' as they say.

Re: The Conjoined Triangles of Senior-Level Development

#38

Post by nilkn »

randomnumber314 wrote: post #22
collyw wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds closer to management than developer.

That's why I said 'lesser title for CTO.' They don't necessarily manage a project, so much as act as a leader for channeling communication between management and coders.

This makes sense for very small companies, but maybe not so much for large companies. For instance, a senior developer at Google is miles away from the CTO (or equivalent position). There you've got senior developers, staff developers, senior staff developers, directors of engineering, distinguished engineers, etc.

Re: The Conjoined Triangles of Senior-Level Development

#39

Post by [deleted] »

hackits wrote: post #32
ap22213 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, on the other hand, companies are throwing away countless dollars on bad software. The problem is that it's relatively easy to write code to make something look somewhat functional, but it's a different level to complete it. The mistakes of the quick approaches take time to show, and then it becomes too late. It takes way more time and money to fix the issues, later. This has been a debate that's been going on fo…

Going to play the devil's advocate here in regards to 'juniors' disregarding the wisdom and experience of 'seniors'. Maybe the advice, experience you're giving is not backed up with any evidence? They may be taking a analytical and evidence based approach and simply choosing between you're advice or a celebrity tweeter as both lacking any evidence and thus being both equal. Possibly the silver bullet gives them a upp…

[deleted]

Re: The Conjoined Triangles of Senior-Level Development

#40

Post by hackits »

ovatsug25 wrote: post #31
ap22213 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, on the other hand, companies are throwing away countless dollars on bad software. The problem is that it's relatively easy to write code to make something look somewhat functional, but it's a different level to complete it. The mistakes of the quick approaches take time to show, and then it becomes too late. It takes way more time and money to fix the issues, later. This has been a debate that's been going on fo…

Health care in the US blows through cash and often gets poorer results. Regulation does not a great industry make.

You don't know how governments works then.
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