Is Ego-Depletion a Replicable Effect? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is Ego-Depletion a Replicable Effect?

#31

Post by TeMPOraL » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 1:09 PM UTC

fao_ wrote: post #30

TeMPOraL wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should be publicly recorded too and maybe eventually we'll have a list of funding bodies that like to minmax profits by damaging research.

This doesn't seem very feasible given the current level of privacy afforded to companies. I don't think there's a way to distinguish between studies that have lost funding because there are genuinely less funds to go around, and foo experiment just happened to be one of the ones that didn't make the cut, and studies that have had the funding pulled for harmful reasons (Like negative results). Mainly because it's devi…

Yeah, I guess.

But something else came to my mind now:

> Of course, one way to counter that is to insist that the data is published regardless, but I'm sure that the data could be hidden with clever use of NDAs and court arguments along the lines of "We need to prohibit the distribution of company assets".

I find myself more and more treating complexity as a proxy for dishonesty. Companies that are trustworthy seem to have a relatively simple business model that they don't try to hide. The more convoluted it is, the more likely it is someone is scamming you. Wonder if that could be used as an effective metric - the more complex the reason someone weasels away from publishing the data, the more their "reputability" score goes down?

Re: Is Ego-Depletion a Replicable Effect?

#32

Post by visarga » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 1:10 PM UTC

Cybiote wrote: post #25

tlb wrote: post #7

Ego depletion is framed as an effect in a particular direction: applying self-control reduces self-control in the near future. So studies are called successful if they see that direction, otherwise unsuccessful. But the other direction is a reasonable hypothesis too: applying self-control increases self-control because the brain regions are activated and ready, or something. So you could frame the problem bidirection…

The common mistake that many (but not necessarily you) make is to assume that conscious effort is proportional to energy use in the brain. The idea that willpower brain is some kind of store that can be depleted is not as parsimonious as other hypotheses. Cognizing is a costly activity, whether daydreaming or thinking, a lot of stuff is going on. So why does thinking in particular feel difficult? The least terrible a…

I think conscious effort in itself is not difficult. What is difficult is to be lacking acceptable options or strategies to solve the problem at hand. That is causing anxiety and fatigue.

To put this in terms of machine learning, the brain is doing reinforcement learning maximizing a value function. But when the value function is very low and options (strategies) available are too limited, the system can't output a satisfactory action for the next step so it interprets this as suffering.

It's all about availability of choices, not the actual effort. What's depleting is not energy in the brain but the perception of how well we can handle the situation. The state of flow is also related to conscious effort, but in flow there is always a good outlook, there are many options available, many strategies, creative possibilities of combination, and consequently, it's a joyful activity.

Re: Is Ego-Depletion a Replicable Effect?

#33

Post by gragas » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 2:03 PM UTC

visarga wrote: post #32

Cybiote wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The common mistake that many (but not necessarily you) make is to assume that conscious effort is proportional to energy use in the brain. The idea that willpower brain is some kind of store that can be depleted is not as parsimonious as other hypotheses. Cognizing is a costly activity, whether daydreaming or thinking, a lot of stuff is going on. So why does thinking in particular feel difficult? The least terrible a…

I think conscious effort in itself is not difficult. What is difficult is to be lacking acceptable options or strategies to solve the problem at hand. That is causing anxiety and fatigue. To put this in terms of machine learning, the brain is doing reinforcement learning maximizing a value function. But when the value function is very low and options (strategies) available are too limited, the system can't output a s…

That is a near perfect description of a feeling I feel a lot when debugging without a clear path.

Re: Is Ego-Depletion a Replicable Effect?

#34

Post by wpietri » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 2:07 PM UTC

Cybiote wrote: post #25

tlb wrote: post #7

Ego depletion is framed as an effect in a particular direction: applying self-control reduces self-control in the near future. So studies are called successful if they see that direction, otherwise unsuccessful. But the other direction is a reasonable hypothesis too: applying self-control increases self-control because the brain regions are activated and ready, or something. So you could frame the problem bidirection…

The common mistake that many (but not necessarily you) make is to assume that conscious effort is proportional to energy use in the brain. The idea that willpower brain is some kind of store that can be depleted is not as parsimonious as other hypotheses. Cognizing is a costly activity, whether daydreaming or thinking, a lot of stuff is going on. So why does thinking in particular feel difficult? The least terrible a…

That's a very interesting point. I had never thought that conscious effort would be proportional to energy use, as if some tiny gas tank in the brain would run low.

I can happily move from one high-focus thing (e.g., coding) to a different one (e..g, complex game) without problem. And as long as a problem keeps being interesting (that is, providing novelty or progress) I can focus for very long periods. That made me think that my experience of mental tiring was more a way to prevent lock-in and to keep me away from situations of diminishing returns. In our natural environment, I'd expect the cost/benefit curve for pure abstract focus to drop sharply, so it wouldn't surprise me for there to be a special mechanism to get us out of our heads and back into dealing with our environment and bodily needs.

Re: Is Ego-Depletion a Replicable Effect?

#35

Post by JoeAltmaier » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 2:13 PM UTC

tlb wrote: post #7

Ego depletion is framed as an effect in a particular direction: applying self-control reduces self-control in the near future. So studies are called successful if they see that direction, otherwise unsuccessful. But the other direction is a reasonable hypothesis too: applying self-control increases self-control because the brain regions are activated and ready, or something. So you could frame the problem bidirection…

The effect might be modal, depending on other variables (expectation, sleep, diet etc). So it works one way on one person or at one time, and differently elsewhere. Our brain states are likely fantastically modal, since its an enormous state/storage unit.

Re: Is Ego-Depletion a Replicable Effect?

#36

Post by Noseshine » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 2:13 PM UTC

algorias wrote: post #29

cleeus wrote: post #13

love this quote: > Every researcher knows about publication bias, but the practice is so widespread that it is not considered a serious problem.

It is considered a serious problem by many, being a key part of the whole replication crisis. The idea that studies need to be preregistered is slowly gaining ground I feel.

It seems to me, not serious enough for decisive action apparently. Progress is slow on that front. "Knowing" and "doing" are different. Most people who smoke or eat badly are aware that it's a (serious) problem, but it does not necessarily lead to action. So that people "are aware" of something doesn't tell the whole story.

Re: Is Ego-Depletion a Replicable Effect?

#37

Post by Noseshine » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 2:21 PM UTC

hannob wrote: post #18

joeyrideout wrote: post #2

As a layman when it comes to statistics and academia, this is the first I've heard of "publication bias". It seems like a pretty big problem at first glance, especially if it recurses and calls into question meta-analysis being done to investigate the presence of the bias itself. Sounds like a massive headache. If this problem is as big as it sounds, what are the repercussions?

It is an extremely big problem. In medicine all kinds of things were done to avoid publication bias (most notably trials registers). It still is a big problem, because the countermeasures aren't enforced. In most other areas people don't even try to counter it, which means it's probably much worse and we don't know how bad it is. It's a major reason why so much of science is most likely false. I suggest you have a lo…

Interesting what gets downvoted here (the parent comment looks very "light gray" at the time I'm writing this).

So in support and just for reference, some articles:

http://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/jou... (Why Most Published Research Findings Are False)

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/an-epidemic-of-fal...

http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21588057-scientists-t...

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21588069-scientific-re...

http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2013/10/science-wrong

Re: Is Ego-Depletion a Replicable Effect?

#38

Post by Noseshine » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 2:24 PM UTC

apatters wrote: post #16

So... do I eat the chocolate cookies, or not? This is so difficult!

By the way, the marshmallow study has been redone and reinterpreted. It has been found that the children's behavior is heavily influenced by their life experience. When they live in an environment where they can't trust adults they eat the marshmallow sooner, quite rationally. So it isn't an inherent trait of the child but of its environment whether it waits for the promised future return or not.

Re: Is Ego-Depletion a Replicable Effect?

#39

Post by agarden » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 3:08 PM UTC

Noseshine wrote: post #38

apatters wrote: post #16

So... do I eat the chocolate cookies, or not? This is so difficult!

By the way, the marshmallow study has been redone and reinterpreted. It has been found that the children's behavior is heavily influenced by their life experience. When they live in an environment where they can't trust adults they eat the marshmallow sooner, quite rationally. So it isn't an inherent trait of the child but of its environment whether it waits for the promised future return or not.

Oh, wow. That is such an obvious explanation, now that you point it out. Where can I read more?

Re: Is Ego-Depletion a Replicable Effect?

#40

Post by Noseshine » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 3:12 PM UTC

agarden wrote: post #39

Noseshine wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the way, the marshmallow study has been redone and reinterpreted. It has been found that the children's behavior is heavily influenced by their life experience. When they live in an environment where they can't trust adults they eat the marshmallow sooner, quite rationally. So it isn't an inherent trait of the child but of its environment whether it waits for the promised future return or not.

Oh, wow. That is such an obvious explanation, now that you point it out. Where can I read more?

This is one link, but I think there probably is more follow-up research on that study:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010027712...

I've seen an interview with a researcher who said something along the lines of "we take reliability into account" - but what he then said seems to show a very narrow interpretation. The experimenter must be well-known to the children and has played with them before the experiment, and that "the marshmallows are right there in front of them, so it's not a reliability issue". Personally, I don't think that is even remotely enough to account for the effect and that is a somewhat naive take on the issue, especially the second part that solely relies on reason. Which doesn't even work in adult scientists to counter social effects.