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Modern China Is So Crazy It Needs a New Literary Genre

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Re: Modern China Is So Crazy It Needs a New Literary Genre

#31

Post by iliketosleep »

mac01021 wrote: post #28
iliketosleep wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s in the process of materialising, the conditions are already set. Firstly, China’s "rise" came from cheap labour and the destruction of the environment. Labour is not so cheap anymore, and the environment is all but destroyed. But that’s okay, China’s already rich, right? Problem is the people are still poor, and much of the money already left the country. China’s GDP (PPP) per capita is less than that of Iraq, b…

Interesting... Thanks! What city were you in, out of curiosity?

guangzhou

Re: Modern China Is So Crazy It Needs a New Literary Genre

#32

Post by aab0 »

I don't know about 'new'. I read Dos Passos's _U.S.A._ trilogy many years ago, and what I kept thinking in reading articles and essays about China's modernization over the past decades is, 'it's just like in Dos Passos!' Especially when you read about some Chinese businessman who has founded a dozen businesses none of which have anything to do with each other after starting as a beggar or something, I kept finding it an echo of the people in Passos. China is really in a similar stage as the USA was in the Gilded Age, right down to the muckrakers in Hong Kong and private security agencies.

Re: Modern China Is So Crazy It Needs a New Literary Genre

#34

Post by coldtea »

mcguire wrote: post #22
coldtea wrote: post #7

So, some corrupt officials, a polygamist, a wanted official seeking asylum in a foreign consulate, and restaurants reusing cooking oil too much is an example of "unreality"? Where exactly did the author grew up in? Cushioned upper class life, or Disneyland? And those examples in a country with over a billion people? You can find all those examples in Africa, Asia, South America, etc. A lot of those are hardly uncommo…

You do realize that the death of Mao, the cleansing of th Gang of Four, and the end of the Cultural Revolution was only 40 years ago? A significant fraction of people there survived the Great Leap Forward and now live in a weirdly capitalistic country. Couple that with the difference between rural and urban China, and I expect you might want to forgive the author abit of dislocation.

>You do realize that the death of Mao, the cleansing of the Gang of Four, and the end of the Cultural Revolution was only 40 years ago? A significant fraction of people there survived the Great Leap Forward and now live in a weirdly capitalistic country.

I do realize that -- in fact it's not that different from what's been going on elsewhere, e.g. where I live. A lot of European countries had a similar story (WWII was 70 years ago, fascist regimes/Juntas in Grece, Portugal and Spain ended like 40 years ago or less, the Eastern bloc collapsed 26 years ago. Romanians that are 40 year old now grew up with Ceausescu and several whole countries didn't exist but as part of Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia.

The didn't jump (no pun intended) from the Great Leap Forward into a weirdly capitalistic country overnight -- this has been going on since the 80s. The author himself was 17 years old when the cultural revolution ended -- he spent most of his life in the transition, not in that era.

Plus all of his "unreal" examples (from restaurants re-using cooking oil, to corrupt higher-ups, to the polygamist official, etc could have happened just as well in 1970 or in 1850 China -- or anywhere else for that matter).

He might have a point -- but not based on his examples. They sound more like a lack of experience with similar things going on in most countries ("it can only happen here") than genuine unreal-ness.

Re: Modern China Is So Crazy It Needs a New Literary Genre

#35

Post by contingencies »

iliketosleep wrote: post #23
mac01021 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You subscribe to the thesis that China's future is grim compared to it's present state? Or that it is a dystopia of epic proportions right now? If you care to elaborate, I am interested in your perspective.

It’s in the process of materialising, the conditions are already set. Firstly, China’s "rise" came from cheap labour and the destruction of the environment. Labour is not so cheap anymore, and the environment is all but destroyed. But that’s okay, China’s already rich, right? Problem is the people are still poor, and much of the money already left the country. China’s GDP (PPP) per capita is less than that of Iraq, b…

Disagree. Been here 15 years, on and off. Current-era China is innovative, dynamic, real, and above all pragmatic. Politics are basically ignored and irrelevant to most people. China's future is bright, people here are one generation from poverty and can get by simply when necessary. No water? No power? No gasoline? No communications? No problem. People will get by, without grumbling too much, even in the cities. I've seen it with my own eyes. At a time when America and the EU both have little to say for themselves, belittling China's future is rather hypocritical. Remember, China was a self-sufficient economy less than a handful of decades ago, is massively investing in renewable energy and leads the world in things like electric vehicle adoption and mobile payment. Of course, it aint all sunshine, but its pretty warm regardless. (I'm based in Kunming)

Re: Modern China Is So Crazy It Needs a New Literary Genre

#36

Post by Apocryphon »

coldtea wrote: post #7

So, some corrupt officials, a polygamist, a wanted official seeking asylum in a foreign consulate, and restaurants reusing cooking oil too much is an example of "unreality"? Where exactly did the author grew up in? Cushioned upper class life, or Disneyland? And those examples in a country with over a billion people? You can find all those examples in Africa, Asia, South America, etc. A lot of those are hardly uncommo…

I think you're ignoring the difference in scale between corruption we see and hear about in most of the developed world, and the rampant corruption we see in China. And China is currently exceptional, in that it is neither truly developed, nor developing (as in most "third world" countries where you could see that amount of immense corruption), but its own mix of hyper-developed and third world.

Re: Modern China Is So Crazy It Needs a New Literary Genre

#38

Post by cglee »

cjslep wrote: post #20
escape_goat wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate that you are reasoning well from the basis of your understanding of China, and you have arrived at a good explanatory story that works well within a sort of Jungian "collective unconscious" theory of society and culture. However, I think that it is too broad in its generalizations to be viable, and it does not pay enough attention to the actual historical context of circumstances in China.

Thanks, and I admit my understanding is pretty general having spent very little time with people currently living in modern China. Could you or others correct me? I would appreciate pointers, insights, or refinements.

Read the comment from SolaceQuantum: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12026274

Re: Modern China Is So Crazy It Needs a New Literary Genre

#39

Post by venomsnake »

coldtea wrote: post #8
cjslep wrote: post #5

I think the "crazy" aspect coming into play is an iteration of the world-shattering view that occurs when a child realizes his or her parents are just people, not infallible perfect protectors. This fundamentally changes the view of the world for a person because a fundamental truth is no longer true. This change can be viewed as "crazy" and reality becomes more chaotic in the new world view. I believe the same thing…

> I believe the same thing is happening right now in modern China. Simply substitute constituents and the oligarchy instead for the child and parent. Only ordinary Chinese citizens are not childlike and easily led at all (that's an early colonial misunderstanding) -- they are just as smart and street-wise as we are, and understand all the gritty details -- they always did.

I firsthand observed the fall of communist regime in my country (1989). A lot of ordinary citizens (some of them with great education and so on) were very childlike when interacting with the non communist world and the new rules. There was naivete in the population that was exploited and cashed to the fullest. Ponzi schemes, predatory advertising, cults, quacks ...

When the rules of the game change drastically - we are all children until we figure out the new ones.

Re: Modern China Is So Crazy It Needs a New Literary Genre

#40

Post by ben_jones »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #26
cjslep wrote: post #5

I think the "crazy" aspect coming into play is an iteration of the world-shattering view that occurs when a child realizes his or her parents are just people, not infallible perfect protectors. This fundamentally changes the view of the world for a person because a fundamental truth is no longer true. This change can be viewed as "crazy" and reality becomes more chaotic in the new world view. I believe the same thing…

> When the citizens realize the infallible groupthink propaganda touted by the ruling class is in fact being touted by people inflicted with the human condition, they also experience a change in world view. As someone who has grown up in and is Chinese, I very much disagree with this sentiment, especially in modern day. There has always been a discordant and uncomfortable relationship with authority in Chinese cultur…

> but to upend society has an almost horrific cultural connotation, a cultural catastophe referred to only as "that critical time" or "those difficult times"

In historical context the Chinese have every right to be weary. Between WW2 and the "Great Leap Forward" over fifty million have died due to famine and warfare, either inflicted by international forces or the ruling class.

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