Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87 • Hacker News Board

Re: Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

#31

Post by Aelinsaar » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 1:28 AM UTC

littletimmy wrote: post #14

Aelinsaar wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, if Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse someone, they wouldn't still be around. Do you not understand how bombs and fire work? You may not like what their restraint looks like, you may argue for much more, but the level of hyperbole you're engaging in is pointless.

Would it sound more reasonable if we say "Ethnically cleanse at the rate that the international community allows"?

It would still be a pretty grotesque insult to victims of actual ethnic cleansing.

Re: Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

#32

Post by golergka » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 1:32 AM UTC

tanderson92 wrote: post #28

golergka wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you explain this to me please? In theory, criticizing a country and country's right to exist are different things. In practice, usually people who are most vocal critics of Israel don't think it should exist in the first place. > displacing native peoples from their homeland to do so Which is an ugly half-truth. To put things in this way would require either ignorance of the region's history or some ugly dose o…

> In theory, criticizing a country and country's right to exist are different things. > In practice, usually people who are most vocal critics of Israel don't think it should exist in the first place. You actually did not address how being against Israel's right to exist is equivalent to anti-Semitism, which was the intent of my question. > Which is an ugly half-truth. To put things in this way would require either i…

> You actually did not address how being against Israel's right to exist is equivalent to anti-Semitism, which was the intent of my question.

I must've misunderstood it then. Well, isn't it obvious? If you don't deny other ethnicities their nationhood and state, but somehow think that jews don't deserve the same treatment, how can it be not anti-semitic?

Re: Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

#33

Post by YZF » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 1:38 AM UTC

tanderson92 wrote: post #28

golergka wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you explain this to me please? In theory, criticizing a country and country's right to exist are different things. In practice, usually people who are most vocal critics of Israel don't think it should exist in the first place. > displacing native peoples from their homeland to do so Which is an ugly half-truth. To put things in this way would require either ignorance of the region's history or some ugly dose o…

> In theory, criticizing a country and country's right to exist are different things. > In practice, usually people who are most vocal critics of Israel don't think it should exist in the first place. You actually did not address how being against Israel's right to exist is equivalent to anti-Semitism, which was the intent of my question. > Which is an ugly half-truth. To put things in this way would require either i…

Pretty much every country on this planet is not populated by people "native" to that country. So saying Israel has no right to exist based on this argument while applying that argument only to Israel is discriminatory. This is before we even address the question of whether this claim is even true or how it is to be judged. If someone's political opinion is that everyone should move back to where their ancestors lived at some specific time in history and they apply it to everyone equally then I would think that's weird and not going to happen but I'd be fine with that.

Typically I don't like to engage in political discussion about the middle east because most people have no clue about the history of the region and interpret what's going on over there through some lens with a very shallow depth of field. That tends to apply to Israelis as well. That said I think antisemitism is still a concern that we have to speak out about and definitely some modern incarnations of antisemitism are directed towards Israel. That doesn't mean that any criticism of Israel is antisemitic but it's just something that makes things more complicated.

Re: Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

#34

Post by tanderson92 » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 1:43 AM UTC

golergka wrote: post #32

tanderson92 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In theory, criticizing a country and country's right to exist are different things. > In practice, usually people who are most vocal critics of Israel don't think it should exist in the first place. You actually did not address how being against Israel's right to exist is equivalent to anti-Semitism, which was the intent of my question. > Which is an ugly half-truth. To put things in this way would require either i…

> You actually did not address how being against Israel's right to exist is equivalent to anti-Semitism, which was the intent of my question. I must've misunderstood it then. Well, isn't it obvious? If you don't deny other ethnicities their nationhood and state, but somehow think that jews don't deserve the same treatment, how can it be not anti-semitic?

And again, if nobody lived in Palestine (the geographical region) then you would have a point that there is an equivalence.

Otherwise, you need to argue that there is a higher moral value to giving the horribly oppressed Jewish people a state than the immorality of taking away the land of indigenous peoples. But that is a matter of judgement (esp. given anti-Semitism in the UK/US, esp. the UK, at the time leading to us not accepting them all as political refugees), not bigotry.

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007094 https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/jun/08/immigration.immig...

Re: Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

#35

Post by tanderson92 » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 1:53 AM UTC

YZF wrote: post #33

tanderson92 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In theory, criticizing a country and country's right to exist are different things. > In practice, usually people who are most vocal critics of Israel don't think it should exist in the first place. You actually did not address how being against Israel's right to exist is equivalent to anti-Semitism, which was the intent of my question. > Which is an ugly half-truth. To put things in this way would require either i…

Pretty much every country on this planet is not populated by people "native" to that country. So saying Israel has no right to exist based on this argument while applying that argument only to Israel is discriminatory. This is before we even address the question of whether this claim is even true or how it is to be judged. If someone's political opinion is that everyone should move back to where their ancestors lived…

Thanks for this. It's a good explanation which addresses the point I was thinking about. You raise some good points which I'll have to think more about.

Just quickly, I am thinking that the fact there are Palestinians alive today who have been displaced renders the question much more urgent and potent than the problematic elimination of Native Americans >100 years ago, for example.

Re: Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

#36

Post by relics443 » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 2:08 AM UTC

Cyph0n wrote: post #18

golergka wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. Building homes is one hell of an ethnic cleansing operation.

Building homes on illegal lands, forced expulsion and demolition of Palestinian homes, carpet bombing of a prison city, discrimination against Palestinian Arabs at all levels of society - I think that's quite close to the definition of state-sponsored terrorism, and in some cases, genocide.

Forced expulsion? Like when Israel forcibly expelled its own citizens from Gaza to make room for Palestinian terrorists to move in, where they mount lethal attacks against Israel?

Demolition of Palestinian homes? In response to Palestinians murdering Israeli citizens; men, women, and children?

Carpet bombing? Like the targeted missile strikes in Gaza? Where they warn the targets before-hand, only to see those targets force civilians into the strike zone hoping for mass casualties?

Prison city? The one that had a flourishing tourism industry until Israel abandoned it and Hamas took over? The one that they supply water, electricity, and construction supplies to even though they are not paid for?

Discrimination against Palestinian Arabs? Like when they go out of their way to supply them with jobs? Like how there are Palestinian Arab Members of Knesset? Like how they are full citizens of the State?

Your bias is showing.

Re: Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

#37

Post by e12e » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 2:20 AM UTC

golergka wrote: post #21

Zafira wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semitic attacks. So often it feels like proponents of questionable Israeli policies seem to use the Holocaust, Israel's fight for survival through the endless wars from its creation through the 1970s to justify an aggressive and hostile stance. Why is this?

> I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semitic attacks. Because this criticism is too often intertwined with attacks not on israeli policies, but on Israel's right to exist. And yes, saying that jews don't deserve a nation state is definetly anti-semitic. > So often it feels like proponents of questio…

> And yes, saying that jews don't deserve a nation state is definetly anti-semitic.

But in the US and Canada, as far as I know, native Americans/first nation are welcome to be first party citizens, no longer forced to live on reservations? Not without an ugly history of oppression; but the "nation state" is mostly a fascist fiction anyway.

Few native people of the artic claim that they deserve to build a "nation state" - at the same time they organise for other rights, and today work quite well with the various states that govern the area.

The most sane parallell to the state of Israel is probably South-africa: it has shown that it is possible to move from an apartheid state to a more modern state that acknowledge all resident cultures. But as with South Africa, as long as the international community largely supports oppression, a peaceful coexistence is likely to remain out of reach. But hopefully popular opinion will turn in Israel before the genocide is complete; I've already heard former a Israeli helicopter pilot mentioned how he became a conscientious objector after fly-overs of the Gaza strip brought home the similarities to stories he'd been told about the Warsaw getthoes.

As for your examples; most of those are true for Europe (not being seen as an enemy, perhaps, but the war part). And would also apply to South Africa. And yet peace could be an option.

Re: Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

#38

Post by c0nducktr » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 2:23 AM UTC

metaos wrote: post #25

why is this on hacker news?

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

#39

Post by know-fear » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 2:24 AM UTC

littletimmy wrote: post #15

EazyC wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was the controversy about?

Some allege that parts of Night are too implausible and historically inaccurate. But then again, I think he wrote it as a novel rather than a historical document.

I know parts are very historically accurate. My father and uncle were there and are mentioned in the book.

Re: Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

#40

Post by benjohnson » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 2:33 AM UTC

themartorana wrote: post #24

benjohnson wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one that stands out (for me) is Eli's question after God let the Jews die in the Holocaust - "What is man? Ally of God or simply his toy?''" Eli's question is a continuation of the theological "Problem of Evil": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil As a person of faith, Eli's question is still haunting in it's note of despair.

I've always been amazed people can still have faith after things like the holocaust. I'm agnostic myself, something I'm sure you didn't need me to say... But I don't know if there is a god or gods or afterlife at all - but if there is, I'm pretty sure they don't intervene in our daily lives. Believing he/she/they do is accepting a policy of extreme incompetence, or admitting that our well being isn't always at the fo…

My faith tradition would heartily agree that the situation is entirely untenable - only that we would turn our suffering over to God as a way of sharing in His suffering for us.

My rational side finds such a ideas entirely disturbing!

From a Christian viewpoint - God indeed isn't always interested in our (momentary) well being - only that we are saved in everlasting life.

Our more mystical faithfull would remind us that we each experience this world in the palm of God's hand - in that God could create a separate experience for each of us and that (perhaps) the suffering we witness isn't experienced in the way that we see.