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Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

reuters.com

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Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#31
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can this still be possible? Shouldn't all tax legislation be such that if you break the spirit of it by having internal transfers (royalties, fees, interest) to a low-tax area, then you are still taxed based on the business that you had in the country in question, and not based on the net sum (i.e. zero). The current state of tax law is that a billion dollar company pays almost no taxes but a million dollar compa…

Just yesterday they put a whistleblower which published such tax evasion schemes in connection with Luxembourg into prison (LuxLeaks). They ruled that illegal state aid, because the Luxembourg tax authorities actively helped the companies setting up this scheme. The then prime minister and ex-finance minister of Luxembourg Jean-Claude Juncker is now EU Commision president. So either he is incompetent and did not know…

There's also the huge "problem" that the countries in the EU want to maintain sovereignty. France and Spain can't really stop Ireland from doing whatever the hell it wants without giving up some of their own sovereignty.

In the United States, one of the biggest powers of the Federal government is its power to regulate interstate commerce. No one in the EU is willing to give it so much authority.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#32
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Are countries, simply put, afraid to put an end to tax schemes like this, because it would just mean that Ikea or Google would pack up and leave? " In an "odd" application of market-competition, that is precisely what happened. Countries where Google generally did business wanted to tax Google at some X. Then along came Ireland, or Google found Ireland, and saw that they could do some legal paperwork and pay Irelan…

It seems like they should just assess tax liability based on something other than where a company locates its headquarters. Maybe in order to do business in jurisdiction X, where "doing business" == "selling ads" in Google's case, you have to pay taxes to X.

The selling of ads is already taxed. It's called VAT. It's a major revenue source for both EU, and all member nations.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#33
post #2

Google uses Bermuda (a British overseas territory) to avoid tax liability in the EU “Google has paid €8.8 billion in fees to Bermuda,” S&D group MEP Peter Simon complained. [1] The irony being that the current president of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, was Prime Minister of Luxembourg when his administration was organising the low tax environment. [2] [3] And now the EU claims that "the Anti Tax Avoid…

How can this still be possible? Shouldn't all tax legislation be such that if you break the spirit of it by having internal transfers (royalties, fees, interest) to a low-tax area, then you are still taxed based on the business that you had in the country in question, and not based on the net sum (i.e. zero). The current state of tax law is that a billion dollar company pays almost no taxes but a million dollar compa…

> How can this still be possible? Shouldn't all tax legislation be such that if you break the spirit of it by having internal transfers (royalties, fees, interest) to a low-tax area, then you are still taxed based on the business that you had in the country in question, and based on the net sum (i.e. zero).

How would that even work? The costs are actually costs.

Imagine it was actually a dozen different companies. One of them is in California and it develops software on contract, one is in Germany and it develops hardware on contract, one is in China and it manufactures hardware on contract, one is in Ireland and it has the original capital which it pays to the first three in exchange for copyrights, hardware designs and hardware, one is in Spain and it buys product/services from the Irish company and sells local advertising, etc.

It turns out the company with that owns the copyrights makes the most money. That's how it honestly works whether the companies are separate or not. If you made the Spanish company liable for taxes on the profits of the whole supply chain, every company in Spain that uses Google ads would owe taxes on the money paid to Google (and the same for anything they buy from anyone). In other words you would have enacted a sales tax. Which is fine, but isn't an income tax and isn't a tax on Google.

What you seem to want to do is to identify that the companies are actually owned by the same party and do something different in that case. But five seconds after you require that, they would separate. Specifically the company that exists in a jurisdiction that cares about that would become independent. You don't need to own the stock of a company to capture all of its profits when you're its only viable supplier. So now there is an independent contractor in Spain that pays Google Ireland for ad space and resells it for just enough money to pay its own bills and makes no profits.

The problem is fundamentally that income tax makes no sense across borders. People will move whatever it is you're taxing into the country with the lowest taxes if the cost of moving that thing is less than the cost of the taxes. The cost of moving profits is very small. You have to tax something which is harder to move, which is then no longer an income tax.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Google paid €8.8b in fees to avoid paying taxes, just how much taxes are we talking about? Also seconding vmateixeira: Thanks for your research!

So basically Google inc (in a tax haven) makes Google Spain pay for the use of the Google brand 8 billions. Google Spain never makes a profit since it needs to pay a fee for using the brand, thus never have to pay taxes on their huge profit, that's how they get away with it. Apple does it too, with Apple Ireland in Europe. Then Google US and Apple US just have to wait for a tax amnesty in the US in order to bring bac…

>So basically Google inc (in a tax haven) makes Google Spain pay for the use of the Google brand 8 billions. Google Spain never makes a profit since it needs to pay a fee for using the brand, thus never have to pay taxes on their huge profit, that's how they get away with it.

I've seen you post this several times. Do you have a source that I could read up on this?

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#35
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google Docs sets browser cookies. If you have a surprise raid with logged-in workstations, you have access to Drive documents as well.

Just to give some context, a few years ago the Spanish Police arrested the leaders of Anonymous [1]. As a Spaniard, my opinion is that this is just an intimidatory and political move. [1] http://www.cnet.com/news/spain-says-it-has-arrested-anonymou...

Political? There isn't even a government right now.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Google paid €8.8b in fees to avoid paying taxes, just how much taxes are we talking about? Also seconding vmateixeira: Thanks for your research!

So basically Google inc (in a tax haven) makes Google Spain pay for the use of the Google brand 8 billions. Google Spain never makes a profit since it needs to pay a fee for using the brand, thus never have to pay taxes on their huge profit, that's how they get away with it. Apple does it too, with Apple Ireland in Europe. Then Google US and Apple US just have to wait for a tax amnesty in the US in order to bring bac…

They most likely would be less taxed than un-taxed. My old boss used to say 'if you went looking and paid every tax you found that you might owe no one would be in business'. Of course there should be some middle ground.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#37
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Are countries, simply put, afraid to put an end to tax schemes like this, because it would just mean that Ikea or Google would pack up and leave? " In an "odd" application of market-competition, that is precisely what happened. Countries where Google generally did business wanted to tax Google at some X. Then along came Ireland, or Google found Ireland, and saw that they could do some legal paperwork and pay Irelan…

"Then along came Ireland." This is utter nonsense. The problem is US tax repatriation laws introduced during the Clinton administration that allow US companies to leave their profits offshore in countries such as Bermuda or the Cayman Islands. Since they are only taxable on repatriation to the US, they pay no tax on them. Instead, they pressure Congress to introduce 'one-off' tax amnesties that allow them to repatria…

And if they paid that tax in the US (which would then allow the US rate to be lower for the same revenue), how would that help Spain and France? The US would just be what Ireland currently is.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#38
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Are countries, simply put, afraid to put an end to tax schemes like this, because it would just mean that Ikea or Google would pack up and leave? " In an "odd" application of market-competition, that is precisely what happened. Countries where Google generally did business wanted to tax Google at some X. Then along came Ireland, or Google found Ireland, and saw that they could do some legal paperwork and pay Irelan…

"Then along came Ireland." This is utter nonsense. The problem is US tax repatriation laws introduced during the Clinton administration that allow US companies to leave their profits offshore in countries such as Bermuda or the Cayman Islands. Since they are only taxable on repatriation to the US, they pay no tax on them. Instead, they pressure Congress to introduce 'one-off' tax amnesties that allow them to repatria…

I didn't know this context. Thank you for taking the time to write this.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#39
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google Docs sets browser cookies. If you have a surprise raid with logged-in workstations, you have access to Drive documents as well.

Just to give some context, a few years ago the Spanish Police arrested the leaders of Anonymous [1]. As a Spaniard, my opinion is that this is just an intimidatory and political move. [1] http://www.cnet.com/news/spain-says-it-has-arrested-anonymou...

I agree. They do it the same day they publish a list of the biggest debtors, and 4 days after elections.

http://es.reuters.com/article/topNews/idESKCN0ZG1E6

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#40
post #2

Google uses Bermuda (a British overseas territory) to avoid tax liability in the EU “Google has paid €8.8 billion in fees to Bermuda,” S&D group MEP Peter Simon complained. [1] The irony being that the current president of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, was Prime Minister of Luxembourg when his administration was organising the low tax environment. [2] [3] And now the EU claims that "the Anti Tax Avoid…

How can this still be possible? Shouldn't all tax legislation be such that if you break the spirit of it by having internal transfers (royalties, fees, interest) to a low-tax area, then you are still taxed based on the business that you had in the country in question, and not based on the net sum (i.e. zero). The current state of tax law is that a billion dollar company pays almost no taxes but a million dollar compa…

https://youtu.be/Pn10cEm8X_E
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