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Joist lays off 60 employees in Toronto as company relocates to SF

betakit.com

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Re: Joist lays off 60 employees in Toronto as company relocates to SF

#31
post #14
post #9

If anyone whose been let go by Joist is reading this: I'm a developer with Amazon in Toronto. There's a lot going on here- 300 developers in 4 or 5 major divisions doing all kinds of interesting stuff. The pay's good (for Toronto), we're well located (beside Union station), and of course we're hiring. My username, but at my company's name, dot-com. Happy to chat by email, but I'll link you to our jobs site: https://w…

Is it different than Amazon Seattle? I mean, is there a reasonable balance between work and life?

At least on my floor most people leave at around 6.

Re: Joist lays off 60 employees in Toronto as company relocates to SF

#32
post #5

> Kathan told BetaKit that the “incredible difficulty” of acquiring senior-level talent in Toronto As some companies are (finally) starting to realize, there are incredibly talented people all over the world, who are not within 1.5 hours of your office. Allowing them to work remotely opens your company up to a much higher caliber of talent for the same, if not lower, cost. The tools are out there now and they work we…

> Kathan told BetaKit that the “incredible difficulty” of acquiring senior-level talent in Toronto No, it isn't But they're probably looking for "the perfect candidate" and the one that thinks and does things exactly as they expect They won't find it in SF as well

> They won't find it in SF as well

The person they want already exists in SF, because their perfect candidate hits the bullet point 'exists in San Francisco or Silicon Valley.'

As long as everyone continues to believe California is some sort of special, magical place, this will happen. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Everyone goes to California to work at the 'best' places, the 'best' places go to California to get the 'best' people.

It's amazing how many of these 'best' places are run by micromanagers who can not deal with remote workers. So to work at the 'best' places, the 'best' people all have to cram into one physical place to make web apps.

Re: Joist lays off 60 employees in Toronto as company relocates to SF

#34
post #5

> Kathan told BetaKit that the “incredible difficulty” of acquiring senior-level talent in Toronto As some companies are (finally) starting to realize, there are incredibly talented people all over the world, who are not within 1.5 hours of your office. Allowing them to work remotely opens your company up to a much higher caliber of talent for the same, if not lower, cost. The tools are out there now and they work we…

Another option: offer SF "senior-level talent" salaries in Toronto. They'll be spending more than this by relocating and then hiring down there anyway. I expect they'd find that there's plenty of talent already in Toronto, or willing to move.

To me, it seems pretty obvious that the move to SF is more about image than about whom they can hire.

Re: Joist lays off 60 employees in Toronto as company relocates to SF

#35
I came to the valley in a forced relocation some time ago. In that case, we also lost >50% of the team, including engineering. (I stayed until my green card came through then jumped ship.) It was clear, though, that the VPs and up didn't care, because they had their heart set on being Silicon Valley Executives, and damned if they were going to let the rank-and-file get in their way. They were so caught up in the glory of VC and speeding down 280 that they were not interested in the business argument. And as for the departing staff? "It's Silicon Valley, we can easily replace staff"

Here I get a sense of the same story. There is no way it's difficult to hire talent in Toronto, which consistently ranks as one of the most desirable cities in the world. A simple Google search also will produce hundreds, if not thousands, of articles about how the Canadian immigration system is a breeze compared to the US's. Thus I believe this executive team is the same as my own - determined to be 'San Francisco startup CEO', and damned the cost.

By the way, my company's technology fell behind its competitors' (perhaps because of the loss of talent?) and was sold off to a conglomerate ~5 years later, at the same valuation as it had pre-relocation. The CEO had departed the company by then.

Re: Joist lays off 60 employees in Toronto as company relocates to SF

#36

> to achieve our vision for Joist, we need the best talent in the world This is a standard mantra of startup lore, but if I put on my nitpicking hat, is it strictly true? I mean we're not talking about the Manhattan Project here. Plus it's not as though there isn't intensely fierce competition for talent in the valley. Just because a lot of talented people are there, doesn't mean you'll get to hire them. The "best ta…

The question to ask anyone who claims they only hire the best is, "How do you make sure of that?"

They should have an answer, and it needs to be a good one.

Re: Joist lays off 60 employees in Toronto as company relocates to SF

#37
Why not run operations separately (those with limited ability to relocate, mentioned in article) from technology (those with easier access).

A 2-site center with good right people and good workflows (and established, in this case) brings compounded gains. A 90 people company is well above the border-line in establishing dual-site offices.

Re: Joist lays off 60 employees in Toronto as company relocates to SF

#38
post #30

As an engineering student at UWaterloo it's pretty depressing to watch most of the best upper year engineers finish their studies and then abandon Canada for SV. There's logic in it for them: American companies are offering huge sums of money by Canadian standards, the weather is nicer, and the opportunities seem better. If I didn't have serious reservations about living in the US, I would probably do the same. Howev…

If "most of the best upper year engineers finish their studies and then abandon Canada for SV" then "companies make the move". You've laid out in your comment exactly why a company would rationally choose to move from Toronto to SF.

Re: Joist lays off 60 employees in Toronto as company relocates to SF

#39
post #5

> Kathan told BetaKit that the “incredible difficulty” of acquiring senior-level talent in Toronto As some companies are (finally) starting to realize, there are incredibly talented people all over the world, who are not within 1.5 hours of your office. Allowing them to work remotely opens your company up to a much higher caliber of talent for the same, if not lower, cost. The tools are out there now and they work we…

Strange decision. Expanding into the US is a great move, and creating a US office to support that makes perfect sense. Moving the actual HQ to the US seems more questionable. And getting rid of two thirds of their employees when they are still ramping up sounds just plain crazy. I think the smarter move would have been to create a US office and locate it close to either customers (What is the main US center for the c…

Joist had a San Jose office, which was also closed.

Re: Joist lays off 60 employees in Toronto as company relocates to SF

#40
post #24
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just restricted to startups. I know a few stories of F500s who hired people then fired them days or weeks later. In one case one guy never made it to his desk. I don't think HR was given any heads up. I imagine management wanted to keep everything business as usual until the last moment.

Yeah but that's more understandable because they're big bureaucracies and there would be too many people to include in the secret. In what bizarro world is the head of HR not a part of management?

Why is a company conspiring to keep secrets from employees?
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