Live data from Hacker News

The most alienating thing that happened to me as a female engineer

niniane.blogspot.com

31–40 of 105 posts

Re: The most alienating thing that happened to me as a female engineer

#31
post #19

To summarize: Most of the team wants to watch progam A; watching program A during dinner is an established team ritual; author wants to change channel to program B, which is "met with incredulity and laughter". Some time later, program B is running; team members come in and want to change the channel to program A. And that latter event is the most alienating during her time at Microsoft. Wat. It gets better: Because…

You have misrepresented the case, although I do agree that it's not overtly a male/female thing.

People are in a shared TV-viewing area. There is something being shown on TV. New person enters and decides to change the channel without asking.

This is the action of a total dickhead. I don't care what the established ritual is. If a group of people are clearly watching something else (and they must be, because here they are in the tv viewing area, and something else in being shown, and if they wanted to watch something else they'd have already changed the channel), to pick up the remote and change channel without asking is the action of a dickhead.

Possibly the action of someone on the aspergic scale, possibly the action of a sociopath who just doesn't care what other people want. Coming in and changing the channel without asking is simply a massive dickhead thing.

Re: The most alienating thing that happened to me as a female engineer

#33

As a male who hates sports, I can relate. However, it has nothing to do with gender. The inappropriate touching in car event was more worrying, I think.

"Touching me a lot in the process" was a bit ambiguous to me. It was a sports car, and I've ridden in a sports car with a male co-worker (and I'm male), and I had to reach around awkwardly to get the seatbelt in his small expensive sports car.

I wouldn't help another man out with a buckle, and I'd feel really weird if one helped me with one, but if that "uh, I don't want to reach toward my male co-worker in a confined space" thing wasn't there, I could totally imagine at least reaching over and grabbing the buckle and handing it to the person, and they might happen to brush against me in the process. This is potentially a "male-male interaction weirdness" kind of gender treatment difference. If the guy grew up with younger siblings he might even be in the habit of doing this kind of thing without thinking.

Again, that's where the ambiguity comes in. If, due to female anatomy, the back side of his arm happened to brush against her chest as he reached for a buckle in a confined space, that could be considered "touching her a lot", but is that the same as a grope?

Also, let's say he did have some intent to have some physical contact. She doesn't explicitly say where he "touched her a lot". Was it on the leg while he was buckling her, on her shoulder as he was reaching for the buckle? Maybe he was in fact trying to initiate some limited physical contact, known outside the work world in some circles as "kino". "Kino" from someone you're not attracted to is seen as creepy, whereas from someone you are attracted to isn't, and let's be honest here, we don't all explicitly say "may I brush against you as I reach for this buckle" or "may I kiss you" etc.

In a perfect world, unwanted touching wouldn't happen at all, but playing devil's advocate here... here's a guy with his female coworker (and work is where the most marriages happen outside of college, I've read) who agrees to take a ride in his sports car. Aside from explicit verbal discussion about it (which again doesn't happen 95% of the time when contact IS wanted) this guy had some reason to think she might be interested, and initiated some possibly very casual contact. Unless it was an outright grope, I don't know that I'd read so much negative intent into it. At some point people try to break the ice.

For example, at various jobs I've had male coworkers touch my arms or shoulders while speaking to me. Some people think that this helps establish more psychological closeness, although I often don't appreciate it, but I understand the intent. Unless someone were to go out of their way to grope on me, I tend to brush it off and move on with my day.

It's totally possible her experience was different than what I'm reading into it, but again, it was ambiguous enough that I can see other possible interpretations of that interaction.

Re: The most alienating thing that happened to me as a female engineer

#34
post #26
post #19

To summarize: Most of the team wants to watch progam A; watching program A during dinner is an established team ritual; author wants to change channel to program B, which is "met with incredulity and laughter". Some time later, program B is running; team members come in and want to change the channel to program A. And that latter event is the most alienating during her time at Microsoft. Wat. It gets better: Because…

The implication is that the rest of the team felt comfortable enough in that environment that they could change the channel without even having to ask, while OP was loudly ridiculed for wanting to change the channel in a more polite way. The rest of the team felt comfortable with the team dynamic in a way that OP did not, and by ridiculing her, they made it clear that her desires were less important than theirs, thus…

Yep, it has more to do with team dynamics and authority levels than anything related to sexism.

It's a simple fact that usually in groups the majority rules. The majority wanted to watch baseball, not Friends.

Re: The most alienating thing that happened to me as a female engineer

#35
post #26
post #19

To summarize: Most of the team wants to watch progam A; watching program A during dinner is an established team ritual; author wants to change channel to program B, which is "met with incredulity and laughter". Some time later, program B is running; team members come in and want to change the channel to program A. And that latter event is the most alienating during her time at Microsoft. Wat. It gets better: Because…

The implication is that the rest of the team felt comfortable enough in that environment that they could change the channel without even having to ask, while OP was loudly ridiculed for wanting to change the channel in a more polite way. The rest of the team felt comfortable with the team dynamic in a way that OP did not, and by ridiculing her, they made it clear that her desires were less important than theirs, thus…

What happend to democracy lately ?

Re: The most alienating thing that happened to me as a female engineer

#36
post #19

To summarize: Most of the team wants to watch progam A; watching program A during dinner is an established team ritual; author wants to change channel to program B, which is "met with incredulity and laughter". Some time later, program B is running; team members come in and want to change the channel to program A. And that latter event is the most alienating during her time at Microsoft. Wat. It gets better: Because…

I think she blogged about this because it's a very small incident, but it had a very powerful effect on her.

I worked at a womens' clothing store for a while and I often felt like my opinion wasn't valued. The staff was mostly made up of women and I was treated inappropriately in the form of sexual harassment and unprofessional workplace conversations. I tried my best to keep out of it but I must admit I made mistakes.

Anyway, in the morning we often had a 'ritual' that we'd all get coffee in the backroom and talk about anything the store needed that day. I really liked what seemed like a time for open communication in the beginning. Everyone would have their coffee mugs lined up next to the machine - but for some reason another gal always moved my mug to the other side - she'd often separate property by gender? It was strange, to say the least... I always just put my mug with the others, but I started noticing that she would separate them. Over time this began to really bother me simply because of how small and benign it should have been. I'd come in, glance over, see that my mug was off to the side by itself... and it was easy to feel like I wasn't part of the team.

It just felt like... after all the serious problems there had to be dumb small ones too. Like not being able to enjoy Friends after long day of working on Microsoft Flight Sim. Everything had to be a problem, no matter how small the thing was. A coffee mug. A favorite TV show.

I don't think it helps to say we can share much worse experiences. Sexism or whatever this is doesn't go away because by comparison she had it easier than others. It's clear she felt undervalued in her team and that's a problem - especially in terms of how her productivity (may) have suffered. Microsoft should be working to reduce dumb stuff like this so everyone can work at their peak productivity - with the side-benefit of feeling camaraderie among their colleagues.

Personally I'd just go buy my own damn TV and watch alone in my office? :p

Maybe I don't have social skills either. :-)

Re: The most alienating thing that happened to me as a female engineer

#37
Lots of males here providing shameful confirmation of the same thoughtless behavior the OP is calling out (finally after all these years). By focusing on specifics most commenters here seen to be missing the point that subtle marginalizing behaviors cause harm in unseen ways.

Re: The most alienating thing that happened to me as a female engineer

#38
post #19

To summarize: Most of the team wants to watch progam A; watching program A during dinner is an established team ritual; author wants to change channel to program B, which is "met with incredulity and laughter". Some time later, program B is running; team members come in and want to change the channel to program A. And that latter event is the most alienating during her time at Microsoft. Wat. It gets better: Because…

You have misrepresented the case, although I do agree that it's not overtly a male/female thing. People are in a shared TV-viewing area. There is something being shown on TV. New person enters and decides to change the channel without asking. This is the action of a total dickhead. I don't care what the established ritual is. If a group of people are clearly watching something else (and they must be, because here the…

You had a great point until you brought in psychiatric diagnoses.

I think this is an example of the conjunction fallacy, or The Linda Problem.

Bob walks in and changes the channel even though other people are watching.

Is Bob an asshole, or is Bob and asshole and has Asperger's?

Re: The most alienating thing that happened to me as a female engineer

#39

As a male who hates sports, I can relate. However, it has nothing to do with gender. The inappropriate touching in car event was more worrying, I think.

I thought the same on first reading. But now I think the author felt the first more strongly because it made her feel "not even worth consideration" rather than "merely" objectified, which presumably is something she might have more familiarity/ability to cope with.

Still nothing to do with gender.

Re: The most alienating thing that happened to me as a female engineer

#40
post #16

Want to know the most alienating thing that ever happened to me as a female engineer? Someone told me to suck their dick in front of the CEO. Suck it the fuck up buttercup.

That's pretty awful.

Out of interest, what did the CEO do? Sounds like a pretty bold thing for the other employee to say in front of the CEO. What was the context? Could that employee have equally said something as vile to another man without repercussion?

Post reply on HN