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Quebec passes law to regulate Uber

cbc.ca

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Re: Quebec passes law to regulate Uber

#31

Post by yummyfajitas »

rodgerd wrote: post #26
jsmeaton wrote: post #2

The problem with regulation isn't Uber. It's the extraordinary costs required to operate a taxi - mostly the $200k plate. If I can get a background check and a card certifying me to be allowed to work with children for about $50, why does it cost nearly $200k to get a taxi license. Require licenses, reduce the costs to improve competition, and let the various companies compete on service.

And yet in New Zealand, Uber is instructing its drivers to ignore the legal requirements for commercial passenger transport, which boil down to a background check, a license endorsement, and a more frequent warrent of fitness check. Uber is opposed in principle to even the most minimal safety legislation.

Of course they are opposed. Uber demonstrates that regulation is unnecessary and generally harmful, and typically only exists to rip off consumers.

Taxi regulations typically limit supply (raising costs for consumers), protect drivers over passengers (in Vegas a complaint against drivers must be notarized), and protect favored ethnic groups (c.f. Shiv Sena's taxi law in Maharashtra). Can you name any contemporary real life problem that taxi regulators solve better than Uber's own regulators?

I'm aware that historically, taxi regulation purports to solve real problems. But I claim that in the modern economy, Uber has solved every single one of those problems better than regulators can.

Of all the cities I'm familiar with (NYC, Vegas, Chicago, Mumbai, Delhi, Pune, Bangalore, Kuala Lumpur), I can't think of a single instance where a regulated taxi gave me better consumer protections than Uber/Lift/Ola.

So again, the simple question: what problems that currently exist would regulation solve?

Re: Quebec passes law to regulate Uber

#32

Post by yummyfajitas »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #23
rdlecler1 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, you mean like any regular job? Where you need to exceed everyone's expectations? This is what a free market looks like. Don't like that? Take a look at Venezuela, and tell me you'd prefer to be dumpster diving for your next meal. Capitalism and Democracy are aweful aweful systems, but everything else is worse.

The difference is probably the level of expectations. In "any regular job" you don't get fired for having your ratings fall below 4.3 / 5 because a customer of yours had a bad day or fat-fingered 1 in a hurry. The jobs with high turnover rates are usually known as "shitty jobs".

Do you really think that a highly competent organization that's hired hundreds of data scientists can't estimate/discount the base rate of fat fingered/random bad ratings?

(Fun fact: I don't know about Uber, but I know Ola does exactly this. They use "how would you handle this exact problem" as a warmup question on their interviews.)

Re: Quebec passes law to regulate Uber

#33

Post by yummyfajitas »

SFJulie wrote: post #24
Elv13 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They plan to stay http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/uber-quebec-deal-1.36... In my opinion, the government and the ride hailing companies should have bought back a share of the taxi permit pool value, then cancelled them. It would have been costly, but by taxing the ride themselves (at a fixed rate) then letting competition drive the ride price down while increasing the ride volume. The government could have had…

Automation will work if and only if car operator can make themselves non liable for any accident resulting from bugs. Accident are stuffs that cannot be predicted. A bug is something that can be avoided. As far as I am concerned, 99% of the software industry is not able to write critical software that is able to handle with a correct costs the case of failures and/or "abnormal" behaviors. Software will fail. It will…

Accident are stuffs that cannot be predicted.

Car insurance companies do this on a daily basis and make consistent and reliable profits betting on the outcomes.

Re: Quebec passes law to regulate Uber

#34

Post by blisterpeanuts »

GnarfGnarf wrote: post #29

Sometimes developed countries miss out on some good ideas. When I lived in Lima, Peru and La Paz, Bolivia in the 60's, they had a system called "colectivos". You stood on a main road, and in a few minutes a random car would stop, you'd pile in with four other people, and for 10¢ you'd get a ride downtown. No permits, no insurance, any driver can participate. Faster and more frequent service than anything I've experie…

When I was a foreign student in Taiwan in the early 80s, the taxis were numerous and cheap, and were a reasonable substitute for the (numerous) buses. Pile in a cab with 2-3 friends and go anywhere in Taipei for a dollar or so. You did get ripped off from time to time, but overall a very convenient system. The system in the U.S. is expensive and limited by comparison, cronyism and monopolistic.

Re: Quebec passes law to regulate Uber

#35

Post by hiharryhere »

rdlecler1 wrote: post #16
jclulow wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can tell, the drive to pamper riders comes from the fear of being cut off from driving for receiving too many sub-five star ratings. I would feel differently about it if Uber were handing out a "water bottle" stipend.

Oh, you mean like any regular job? Where you need to exceed everyone's expectations? This is what a free market looks like. Don't like that? Take a look at Venezuela, and tell me you'd prefer to be dumpster diving for your next meal. Capitalism and Democracy are aweful aweful systems, but everything else is worse.

Quoting extremes at either end of the political spectrum is just silly.

The alternative to an unregulated workforce who's livelihoods are subject to the whims of an opaque organisation is not dumpster diving in Venezuela.

Sensible regulation with sensible market forces at a happy equilibrium is best.

It's never going to be perfect but arguments like yours make finding a reasonable compromise possible.

Re: Quebec passes law to regulate Uber

#36

Post by MarkMc »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #31
rodgerd wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet in New Zealand, Uber is instructing its drivers to ignore the legal requirements for commercial passenger transport, which boil down to a background check, a license endorsement, and a more frequent warrent of fitness check. Uber is opposed in principle to even the most minimal safety legislation.

Of course they are opposed. Uber demonstrates that regulation is unnecessary and generally harmful, and typically only exists to rip off consumers. Taxi regulations typically limit supply (raising costs for consumers), protect drivers over passengers (in Vegas a complaint against drivers must be notarized), and protect favored ethnic groups (c.f. Shiv Sena's taxi law in Maharashtra). Can you name any contemporary rea…

Sure, Uber demonstrates that regulation is generally harmful and typically rips off consumers, but doesn't that still allow a few worthy regulations. Say, drivers cannot have a recent conviction for a violent offence?

Re: Quebec passes law to regulate Uber

#37

Post by Mattasher »

GnarfGnarf wrote: post #29

Sometimes developed countries miss out on some good ideas. When I lived in Lima, Peru and La Paz, Bolivia in the 60's, they had a system called "colectivos". You stood on a main road, and in a few minutes a random car would stop, you'd pile in with four other people, and for 10¢ you'd get a ride downtown. No permits, no insurance, any driver can participate. Faster and more frequent service than anything I've experie…

This was one of the most pleasant things about living in Cochabamba, Bolivia. In addition to those "colectivos", they had busses, micros, and trufis that covered the entire city. Though regulated (by syndicates as much as anything), individual drivers and vehicle owners made money based on how many people they picked up. It was a for profit system that worked quite well and was cheap even by local standards, if not always fast, though I can't say it was much slower than the public transport in many Western cities.

In Cochabamba you could also flag a taxi and either trust them to charge you the normal rate, or negotiate a fare. Stressful to do at first, but once you got the hang of it no big deal.

Quick story: We never needed a car while living there, but rented one once to take a road trip. Just outside the city a cholita (Quechua speaking indigenous woman) with a huge bag flagged us down along the main road, got into the back seat without a word, then asked to "bajar" a dozen km later. On the way out she handed us a peso (~15 cents), again without a word.

Re: Quebec passes law to regulate Uber

#38

Post by yummyfajitas »

MarkMc wrote: post #36
yummyfajitas wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they are opposed. Uber demonstrates that regulation is unnecessary and generally harmful, and typically only exists to rip off consumers. Taxi regulations typically limit supply (raising costs for consumers), protect drivers over passengers (in Vegas a complaint against drivers must be notarized), and protect favored ethnic groups (c.f. Shiv Sena's taxi law in Maharashtra). Can you name any contemporary rea…

Sure, Uber demonstrates that regulation is generally harmful and typically rips off consumers, but doesn't that still allow a few worthy regulations. Say, drivers cannot have a recent conviction for a violent offence?

Uber and Lyft already require this in the US, according to a quick google search.

http://www.idrivewithuber.com/uber-driver-requirements/ https://help.lyft.com/hc/en-us/articles/213585758-Requiremen...

In India, Uber now imposes a background check that drastically exceeds the regulatory minimum (police-issued "character certificate", approx an 8k bribe).

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-12-09/uber-drive...

Sounds like criminals driving cars isn't currently a problem in the US. In India, it's a problem that regulators don't solve but Uber does.

So again, what problems that currently exist would regulation solve?

Re: Quebec passes law to regulate Uber

#39

Post by TeMPOraL »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #32
TeMPOraL wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is probably the level of expectations. In "any regular job" you don't get fired for having your ratings fall below 4.3 / 5 because a customer of yours had a bad day or fat-fingered 1 in a hurry. The jobs with high turnover rates are usually known as "shitty jobs".

Do you really think that a highly competent organization that's hired hundreds of data scientists can't estimate/discount the base rate of fat fingered/random bad ratings? (Fun fact: I don't know about Uber, but I know Ola does exactly this. They use "how would you handle this exact problem" as a warmup question on their interviews.)

They could, but do they have incentive to?

It's good for them to keep drivers who committed (e.g. those who took Uber's help in getting a new car) on edge. It's not that they have shortage of candidates, or that they actually care about them.

Re: Quebec passes law to regulate Uber

#40

Post by yummyfajitas »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #39
yummyfajitas wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really think that a highly competent organization that's hired hundreds of data scientists can't estimate/discount the base rate of fat fingered/random bad ratings? (Fun fact: I don't know about Uber, but I know Ola does exactly this. They use "how would you handle this exact problem" as a warmup question on their interviews.)

They could, but do they have incentive to? It's good for them to keep drivers who committed (e.g. those who took Uber's help in getting a new car) on edge. It's not that they have shortage of candidates, or that they actually care about them.

Lets think about their incentives.

Uber, Ola and others are desperately in need of more good drivers. They are growing rapidly, and literally will pay their competitors in order to attempt to recruit their drivers.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ellenhuet/2014/05/30/how-uber-an...

http://www.theverge.com/2014/8/26/6067663/this-is-ubers-play...

"Uber has been aggressively poaching Lyft drivers for months, offering them huge bonuses just to do a few rides on Uber. This week, Lyft started fighting back with similar bonuses..."

There are two ways to have an extra driver next week. One is expensive recruiting methods. The other is not kicking them off the service. Remember, growth = new acquisitions - churn.

Lets think now about the costs. Handling the base rate of bad ratings would cost a data scientist a month or two of time - approx $20-60k. Assuming those huge bonuses are $500/driver, you'd need to retain 120 drivers for that python script to be worthwhile.

So if Uber has no incentive to solve this problem, it's only because it's a tiny problem (affecting Are you really claiming that Uber hires hundreds of data scientists, but doesn't actually have them answer questions like "which drivers should be fired"? What do you think they do with them?

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