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The Web’s Creator Looks to Reinvent It

nytimes.com

31–40 of 67 posts

Re: The Web’s Creator Looks to Reinvent It

#31
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One way to think about this is that these guys are going to try, they'll come up with stuff that no one uses and it will be some nerd somewhere that comes up with the next iteration of the web. I.e., it won't be Berners-Lee that does it, it will be the next Berners-Lee somewhere. Satoshi (whether one person, or a group) did it with Bitcoin. The concept is now ingrained into every architect's toolbox. While Bitcoin it…

Yes, that's what I would favor. Not only decentralized web, but also dezentralized thinking and tinkering. Maybe it's because the emphasis of the article is put on Berners-Lee and thereby creating a notion of authority, or because the group meeting and church-like environment somehow looks and sounds very much like design by committee, but the article didn't really convey that path to me.

My point was to say that it doesn't matter what these guys do. The web became centralized because that was expedient, convenient and we could pay someone else to do the work. Anything that doesn't have these characteristics will not replace the centralization.

Re: The Web’s Creator Looks to Reinvent It

#32
post #22

The end of the article said it best. It isn't an infrastructure problem. It's a society problem; people want to use centralized services, ie. Twitter, Snapchat, Instagram, Facebook, etc etc. Muggles don't give two fucks about privacy - idiots aren't usually political dissidents until their food supply gets low or their Snapchat gets filtered by the Great Firewall.

People don't want to use these services. People have to use them, as there is no other method. Had the web's been decentralized from the get-go, and someone would come with a centralized service, you'd find the goldenkeys of the world arguing "people want to use decentralized services".

The federation idea seems to be the best way to create decentralization . The problem is that most people working on a type of website usually combine forces and host together. ThePirateBay and Libgen have come the closest to being federation-like. Tons of mirrors and different host names with the same source code and content that is meshnetted across the federation. The only thing that tpb isnt a good demonstration of is divided private data. That is the motivator for most decentralization proponents

Re: The Web’s Creator Looks to Reinvent It

#33

It's simple: make computers secure enough that connecting one to the net won't imply being hacked within a few days (minutes in some cases). Re-enable mail servers to be run from home connections, make them dead simple to set up and bullet proof. And so on. You can only wind this clock back step-by-step, a reboot will break too much that we have come to depend on. It all went wrong at NAT, we were supposed to be peer…

That won't work given his primary threat model: government censorship. Actually, I had to point this out to Bruce Schneier back when he was calling for tech to take back the Internet. I dropped a dump of all kinds of it from CompSci. I also told him it wouldn't work. Civil liberty and privacy from government is inherently a political problem because the government can always outlaw this, jail someone for that, or sometimes even murder its opponents. Problem is government itself. Only people can do something about that.

I agree with the need for what you suggested, though. It's also within reach of current technology with legacy compatibility for the most part. CHERI team has demonstrated that nicely with a FreeBSD port to a capability architecture that also supports safe, C apps. See main paper and "Beyond PDP-11" for details.

https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/research/security/ctsrd/cheri/

Re: The Web’s Creator Looks to Reinvent It

#34

It's simple: make computers secure enough that connecting one to the net won't imply being hacked within a few days (minutes in some cases). Re-enable mail servers to be run from home connections, make them dead simple to set up and bullet proof. And so on. You can only wind this clock back step-by-step, a reboot will break too much that we have come to depend on. It all went wrong at NAT, we were supposed to be peer…

The usual way home computers get compromised is user error; downloading and installing software that they shouldn't. It's social engineering. "Your computer has a virus! Install our software!"

Also running a home email server isn't usually that helpful. Even if you do that you're going to have to use relays to get your message where you want it to go (unless the topology of internet email changes dramatically), so you might as well cut out the step of having your own server and just send the mail directly to the first relay you'd be using anyway.

Re: The Web’s Creator Looks to Reinvent It

#35
post #28

It's simple: make computers secure enough that connecting one to the net won't imply being hacked within a few days (minutes in some cases). Re-enable mail servers to be run from home connections, make them dead simple to set up and bullet proof. And so on. You can only wind this clock back step-by-step, a reboot will break too much that we have come to depend on. It all went wrong at NAT, we were supposed to be peer…

>It's simple: make computers secure enough that connecting one to the net won't imply being hacked within a few days It's not really simple. It's actually complex and having a general purpose computer be hardened enough for non-geek homeowners not to screw up (social engineering, security warnings fatigue, etc) is possibly an unsolvable problem. If RSA SecurID whose very business competency is security can be hacked[…

"It's not really simple. It's actually complex and having a general purpose computer be hardened enough for non-geek homeowners not to screw up (social engineering, security warnings fatigue, etc) is possibly an unsolvable problem."

It's actually straight-forward based on lessons learned in high-assurance security: research and field-proven stuff that actually stopped pentesters vs common stuff that doesn't. Apple already gets far with iPhones and app stores despite having way less security than I'd advocate. Their Macs showed auto-configuration & easy everything with a UX experience that needs to be in secure computers. That's just through whitelisting, quality control for apps, and sandboxing. Weak but fairly effective.

So, what's something better take? It takes POLA all through the architecture for one. Orange Book showed no apps must be able to write to most critical files of the system except specific, administrative ones. Secrets should be compartmentalized in partitions with code that uses them without leaks, esp covert channels. Turaya et al showed you could do that in a single partition most of the time. OpenVMS showed a transactional, versioned filesystem lets you dodge all kinds of bullets with broken installs, accidentally deleting stuff, and so on. Time Machine shows how to make other process, backups, easy as possible. It would be combined with above to make that safe where apps couldn't subvert it.

With above + whitelisting, apps are neither likely to try to do damage nor will do damage to critical files. The next step is mapping user's intent to computers securely. CapDesk, a capability-secure desktop from Combex, shows us hints of how to do that with their PowerBox feature. It's basically a file dialog that, in the background, gives the app permission for just what user clicks on. OS or GUI manages it where app can't do crap with it. Trustworthy GUI's like Nitpicker GUI in Genode prevent spoofing of this or other windows plus screen scraping. So, they're trusted dialogs for key actions that people get used to and allow fine-grained permissions to be inferred.

The next step is on the apps themselves. They're going to try all kinds of tricky stuff. Android permission model is a start on dealing with this. Could, as Common Criteria did, create profiles for specific types of apps that have just what permissions make sense for that type of app. Wouldn't be mandatory but profiles or certification to them could help users instantly determine security package is reasonable. Certification would be easy if it was a permission list, use of a safe language, avoidance of features marked risky (eg macros, ActiveX, or JavaScript), and so on. Any app using stuff like that leverages capability-model with extra compartmentalization. All apps in this model are written with a language using GC or safe, manual memory. Any JIT's are integrated with isolation and/or capability schemes. All that is enforced, a la CHERI or SAFE, down to the CPU with IO/MMU transparently managing tags on incoming or outgoing data.

Hard for me to imagine easy hacks on systems that combine above principles. It will sound hard to some reader until they remember existing mainframe, desktop, and UNIX architectures are much more complicated than a Rust or Go app against a straight-forward API with a permission list and/or security policy. Or a set of OS components coded similarly. Side effect is extensions and maintenance become easier once you have OS in type-safe, memory-safe, concurrency-safe, modular language with isolation as default coding strategy.

Note: This covers security at the software and firmware level. Attacks on transistors or RF through software are outside of scope as R&D is ongoing.

Re: The Web’s Creator Looks to Reinvent It

#36

It's simple: make computers secure enough that connecting one to the net won't imply being hacked within a few days (minutes in some cases). Re-enable mail servers to be run from home connections, make them dead simple to set up and bullet proof. And so on. You can only wind this clock back step-by-step, a reboot will break too much that we have come to depend on. It all went wrong at NAT, we were supposed to be peer…

I agree with you - we have to stop focusing on building the network, and go back to building the computer again.

If our systems were safer, and could be relied on as a resource to share resources with others, which we want to share, we wouldn't need to broker the process out to others.

Its only because OS vendors fell asleep at the wheel - dazed, perhaps, by the potential to shift the problem out to the end-developers - and stopped building good OS features.

Re: The Web’s Creator Looks to Reinvent It

#37
Centralization really is a social problem. Among alternatives, most people will mindlessly choose the most popular one, while extreme popularity of something should instead be a reason to avoid it or at least to be very cautious about it.

No decentralized technology is immune to this herd behavior. Even Bitcoin is probably doomed to become dominated and effectively controlled by some popular mining pool or online wallet provider. This will not change until new ethics of decentralization forms in the society. And that will happen eventually, but it could take a lot of time.

Re: The Web’s Creator Looks to Reinvent It

#38
post #24

It's simple: make computers secure enough that connecting one to the net won't imply being hacked within a few days (minutes in some cases). Re-enable mail servers to be run from home connections, make them dead simple to set up and bullet proof. And so on. You can only wind this clock back step-by-step, a reboot will break too much that we have come to depend on. It all went wrong at NAT, we were supposed to be peer…

> Re-enable mail servers to be run from home connections Mail servers, perhaps. SMTP servers, not a chance in hell. SMTP simply wasn't designed for a world with SPAMers, phishing and others who abuse email. If we're going to enable decentralized, we need to build in security and accountability from the start rather than relying on the naive protocols from the dawn of the internet. Note that you can have security and…

I'm looking forward to SMIMP.

https://github.com/smimp

Re: The Web’s Creator Looks to Reinvent It

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a flattr user from both sides (site owner and site visitor), I can't say I was entirely happy with it. Although it's well implemented. I find it difficult that they constrained the concept to payoff = $monthly_amount/$number_of_clicks. From both sides I would prefer to be able to set and see prices, not arbitrary equal results for all the sites I click. That had kept me from clicking in most cases, because I would…

Wouldn't one solution be to simply Flattr the podcast more than once? Click three times, and the podcaster will get three times the slice your blogposter will.

That's also not possible, unfortunately. There's the option to also flattr the side-wide button, but that also kind of defies the idea of putting it where you want it to be (because that's also feedback for the publisher, obviously).

Re: The Web’s Creator Looks to Reinvent It

#40
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don't want to use these services. People have to use them, as there is no other method. Had the web's been decentralized from the get-go, and someone would come with a centralized service, you'd find the goldenkeys of the world arguing "people want to use decentralized services".

The federation idea seems to be the best way to create decentralization . The problem is that most people working on a type of website usually combine forces and host together. ThePirateBay and Libgen have come the closest to being federation-like. Tons of mirrors and different host names with the same source code and content that is meshnetted across the federation. The only thing that tpb isnt a good demonstration…

Federation does not solve the problem. Eventually most users will flock towards single most popular instance of a federated service. Email is federated, but most users betray it by choosing the most popular provider (Gmail). And Google will happily drop email federation "to protect users from spam" when they get enough user share as they did with XMPP.
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