A Guaranteed Income for Every American • Hacker News Board

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#31

Post by brians » Sat, Jun 04, 2016, 8:19 PM UTC

throwaway13337 wrote: post #4

"The UBI is to be financed by getting rid of Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, Supplemental Security Income, housing subsidies, welfare for single women and every other kind of welfare and social-services program, as well as agricultural subsidies and corporate welfare." How the hell does that happen politically? I would love to see basic income replacing a large portion of social programs in the stat…

UBI isn't a plausible replacement for those, because extreme medical care, and care for the disabled, is priced so far out of range with the rest. I expect part of the steps towards UBI to involve further evolution of our systems for allocating those resources.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#32

Post by Mz » Sat, Jun 04, 2016, 8:20 PM UTC

This was a bad trade, in my view. Government agencies are the worst of all mechanisms for dealing with human needs. They are necessarily bound by rules applied uniformly to people who have the same problems on paper but who will respond differently to different forms of help. Whether religious or secular, nongovernmental organization are inherently better able to tailor their services to local conditions and individual cases.

Yet, ironically, he is for a UBI.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#33

Post by maxerickson » Sat, Jun 04, 2016, 8:21 PM UTC

throwaway13337 wrote: post #4

"The UBI is to be financed by getting rid of Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, Supplemental Security Income, housing subsidies, welfare for single women and every other kind of welfare and social-services program, as well as agricultural subsidies and corporate welfare." How the hell does that happen politically? I would love to see basic income replacing a large portion of social programs in the stat…

Yeah, it won't. The $10,000 left after the mandatory health payments would be a cut for many social security recipients, and many of those same people are also probably getting more than $3,000 a year in health care out of Medicare.

Similar problems with Medicaid, it's worth a lot more than $3,000 to the people that are getting it (mostly because children).

This is basically taking the desire to cut entitlement programs and rephrasing it to take advantage of the attention basic income is getting these days.

I sort of expect the best thing the US can do right now to make life better and cheaper for the average citizen is to create/fund residency programs. More doctors will actually lead to lower prices. Pouring money into the demand side won't.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#34

Post by dpweb » Sat, Jun 04, 2016, 8:23 PM UTC

You can make the case for this as a simplification of social welfare, but btw hey - it's also a cure for the coming AI jobs apocalypse! Giving everyone 10k a year isn't going to help a worker replaced by robots. 10k doesn't get you far as an annual income. BI doesn't solve the jobs crisis.

You could view it, as subsidizing corporations to decrease wages. Taxpayers paying what the corporations don't have to. So it won't be surprising to see Basic income touted not just by the liberal crowd, but by the Wall St Journal's and corporate interests.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#35

Post by dclowd9901 » Sat, Jun 04, 2016, 8:24 PM UTC

Not a fan of the decreasing benefits at $60k. That creates a huge donut hole for those making 59k and then get a 3% promotion. All of a sudden they've take a paycut. Make it a flat income. (Also, should be closer to $15 or $18k a year).

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#36

Post by Tycho » Sat, Jun 04, 2016, 8:24 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #29

jkelsey wrote: post #26

I'm sorry libertarians, but you can't just throw a equal amount of cash at everybody and say good luck. Society just isn't that simple. Different people have different needs, and that's where the complex overhead of a bureaucracy comes in. Stop trying to starve the beast already, and instead, help make it better. Or, admit at least, that you just don't give a damn about people who aren't like you.

UBI isn't about libertarianism, it's about reducing the fucking stupid disincentives built into current benefits systems. Instead of telling people that they can have this money only if they work less than 16 hours a week, or only if they stay disabled, just give them the money. That way you don't need to employ doctors to see if someone is still as disabled as they were last year, and people who get a part time job…

But it might create even bigger disincentives that have a much more universal effect, which could be disasterous.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#37

Post by maxerickson » Sat, Jun 04, 2016, 8:25 PM UTC

Tycho wrote: post #28

I'm surprised UBI is getting all the attention and negative income tax is not receiving equal consideration.

A negative income tax would be one way to implement UBI. It sort of fits into the UBI umbrella.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#38

Post by toomuchtodo » Sat, Jun 04, 2016, 8:27 PM UTC

drawkbox wrote: post #30

toomuchtodo wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should probably not position ourselves where we require an inflated dollar then, since those trust fund dollars are going to be drawn down as everyone ages onto Social Security.

I agree, it is a bit of a house of cards as they say. From the article: The largest owner of U.S. debt is Social Security. Since the Social Security system is a government entity, how can the government own its own debt? Good question. This is where the “house of cards” theory resides. Some believe the federal government is merely moving the IOUs from one shell to another, hoping to escape the watchful eye of its cit…

> they are going to just disregard the Social Security debt owed or stretch it way out so the house of cards stays up a bit longer.

I disagree. Taxes with simply rise (as they should've long ago).

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#39

Post by leereeves » Sat, Jun 04, 2016, 8:27 PM UTC

Tycho wrote: post #36

DanBC wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI isn't about libertarianism, it's about reducing the fucking stupid disincentives built into current benefits systems. Instead of telling people that they can have this money only if they work less than 16 hours a week, or only if they stay disabled, just give them the money. That way you don't need to employ doctors to see if someone is still as disabled as they were last year, and people who get a part time job…

But it might create even bigger disincentives that have a much more universal effect, which could be disasterous.

There are good reasons to think it won't.

People continue to work after they have enough money not to; people making $40K per year go to night school to try to increase their income.

Most people continue to want more after their basic needs are met.

And beyond money, work can give a sense of purpose and a connection to other people.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#40

Post by maxerickson » Sat, Jun 04, 2016, 8:29 PM UTC

Tycho wrote: post #36

DanBC wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI isn't about libertarianism, it's about reducing the fucking stupid disincentives built into current benefits systems. Instead of telling people that they can have this money only if they work less than 16 hours a week, or only if they stay disabled, just give them the money. That way you don't need to employ doctors to see if someone is still as disabled as they were last year, and people who get a part time job…

But it might create even bigger disincentives that have a much more universal effect, which could be disasterous.

It would be trivial to implement it slowly and dial it back if you saw adverse outcomes. Giving everyone $20 next year probably wouldn't destroy America.

(of course a slow implementation would have to overlap with existing benefits, not replace them)