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Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

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Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#31

Post by greglindahl »

dghughes wrote: post #28

Forget the batteries look at the cost of replacing aluminum quarter panel which is welded on. For the Model S it's supposedly $15,000+ just for the part then fixed at a Tesla approved bodyshop. That's nuts! I did the math and for comparison on a $3 million Enzo Ferrari a hood (couldn't find a quarter panel) unpainted and used is about $10,000. http://www.ferrparts.com/en/usd/diagrams/front-hood-and-open... I like ele…

I'm not sure what this complaint has to do with electric cars in general -- sure, expensive cars are expensive.

Your Tesla number is definitely incorrect; I rear-ended someone in traffic and fixing the front-end was $10k of parts and $10k of labor. Not a surprising amount given what the car costs.

I suspect a Chevy Bolt will cost about the same to repair as other Chevy cars with a similar price.

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#32

Post by eru »

vonklaus wrote: post #24
hliyan wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own a 2014 Nissan Leaf. Except for the battery and motor, almost every technology in the car is what you'd find in a regular vehicle. Any obsolescence can be dealt with by a battery upgrade (motors are a century old technology, I doubt that'll improve much in 5-10 years).

ahhh gotcha, so just the internal energy source and the part that locomotes it. Nothing too important then, eh? edit: yes, it was a joke. However, not for nothing, this is still a bizarre comment indicating that only the highy technical nuances in the car are nuances and that it should be trivial to swap them out. The battery is tied to the drive train each having a highly specialized and proprietary function. The po…

hliyan said the motor doesn't need upgrading..

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#33

Post by qaq »

dghughes wrote: post #28

Forget the batteries look at the cost of replacing aluminum quarter panel which is welded on. For the Model S it's supposedly $15,000+ just for the part then fixed at a Tesla approved bodyshop. That's nuts! I did the math and for comparison on a $3 million Enzo Ferrari a hood (couldn't find a quarter panel) unpainted and used is about $10,000. http://www.ferrparts.com/en/usd/diagrams/front-hood-and-open... I like ele…

And we are comparing new part with totally unrelated used part because it's more fun? Would also be nice to have a source for Tesla part price.

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#34

Post by toomuchtodo »

greglindahl wrote: post #31
dghughes wrote: post #28

Forget the batteries look at the cost of replacing aluminum quarter panel which is welded on. For the Model S it's supposedly $15,000+ just for the part then fixed at a Tesla approved bodyshop. That's nuts! I did the math and for comparison on a $3 million Enzo Ferrari a hood (couldn't find a quarter panel) unpainted and used is about $10,000. http://www.ferrparts.com/en/usd/diagrams/front-hood-and-open... I like ele…

I'm not sure what this complaint has to do with electric cars in general -- sure, expensive cars are expensive. Your Tesla number is definitely incorrect; I rear-ended someone in traffic and fixing the front-end was $10k of parts and $10k of labor. Not a surprising amount given what the car costs. I suspect a Chevy Bolt will cost about the same to repair as other Chevy cars with a similar price.

> I rear-ended someone in traffic

Emergency braking safety system didn't kick in?

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#35

Post by ctdonath »

vonklaus wrote: post #24
hliyan wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own a 2014 Nissan Leaf. Except for the battery and motor, almost every technology in the car is what you'd find in a regular vehicle. Any obsolescence can be dealt with by a battery upgrade (motors are a century old technology, I doubt that'll improve much in 5-10 years).

ahhh gotcha, so just the internal energy source and the part that locomotes it. Nothing too important then, eh? edit: yes, it was a joke. However, not for nothing, this is still a bizarre comment indicating that only the highy technical nuances in the car are nuances and that it should be trivial to swap them out. The battery is tied to the drive train each having a highly specialized and proprietary function. The po…

Just the battery. A single (nearly) drop in box that could contain batteries, reversible fuel cell, or a micro fusion reactor.

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#36

Post by [deleted] »

vonklaus wrote: post #24
hliyan wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own a 2014 Nissan Leaf. Except for the battery and motor, almost every technology in the car is what you'd find in a regular vehicle. Any obsolescence can be dealt with by a battery upgrade (motors are a century old technology, I doubt that'll improve much in 5-10 years).

ahhh gotcha, so just the internal energy source and the part that locomotes it. Nothing too important then, eh? edit: yes, it was a joke. However, not for nothing, this is still a bizarre comment indicating that only the highy technical nuances in the car are nuances and that it should be trivial to swap them out. The battery is tied to the drive train each having a highly specialized and proprietary function. The po…

[deleted]

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#37

Post by toomuchtodo »

Animats wrote: post #8
omellet wrote: post #2

Now they'll just be held back by lack of a widespread charging infrastructure.

The next big problem is the lack of a unified charging infrastructure. Yes, you can buy a trunk full of adapters.[1] Teslas use their own plug, for which there are a CHAdeMO adapter, a J1772 adapter, and adapters for standard 120VAC and 240VAC outlets. A full set of adapters is about $700. [2] The Chevy Bolt uses Combo Cord, which supports J1772 and CCS. Looking around Silicon Valley, almost all charging points have…

> Tesla's "Supercharger" is supposedly unlimited once you've paid your $2500, but apparently if you use ones near your residence, they send you nag messages saying it's really for travelers.

Because its meant only for travelers. Its for unlimited cross country travel, not as your local free filling station.

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#38

Post by dredmorbius »

pcr0 wrote: post #18

I'm all for electric vehicles, but there are a few things that have bothered me about its mass adoption. Right now, electrics comprise a tiny part of the automobile market share. Yet Tesla is already running into supply issues, particularly with lithium as there are only 3 companies in the world that do industrial-scale lithium mining, that too in a handful of mines around the world. Secondly, I suppose we're current…

This is a real problem and a real concern.

An EV essentially is a car with a very expensive fuel tank (the battery), made out of specific materials and properties. While it is efficient in energy use and can make use of fungible electricity, lithium is rare, limited to specific areas of concentration, and can (as any material) only be partially recycled.

There's lithium elsewhere on Earth, or more precisely, in seawater, but processing seawater for minerals (uranium is another which might be extracted) is expensive in the sense of requiring a lot of energy (arguably the ultimate definition of cost is energy requirements).

At US rates of auto ownership scaled to the world and future populations, known lithium reserves would quickly be exhausted -- a few decades, if that. With recycling, yes, some of that would be re-used, but even at 90% material recoverability (and references I have suggest 30% is far more common), you'll lose ~50% of your original material in 7 generations. (The formula: remaining material = (portion recoverable)^generations. So: 0.47 ~= 0.9^7.)

Other options include other forms of energy storage (including possibly synfuels), other battery components, or we all just start walking a lot more.

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#39

Post by greglindahl »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #34
greglindahl wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what this complaint has to do with electric cars in general -- sure, expensive cars are expensive. Your Tesla number is definitely incorrect; I rear-ended someone in traffic and fixing the front-end was $10k of parts and $10k of labor. Not a surprising amount given what the car costs. I suspect a Chevy Bolt will cost about the same to repair as other Chevy cars with a similar price.

> I rear-ended someone in traffic Emergency braking safety system didn't kick in?

I have an early car, without the necessary sensors.

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#40

Post by ebbv »

dghughes wrote: post #28

Forget the batteries look at the cost of replacing aluminum quarter panel which is welded on. For the Model S it's supposedly $15,000+ just for the part then fixed at a Tesla approved bodyshop. That's nuts! I did the math and for comparison on a $3 million Enzo Ferrari a hood (couldn't find a quarter panel) unpainted and used is about $10,000. http://www.ferrparts.com/en/usd/diagrams/front-hood-and-open... I like ele…

You're talking about a $60k+ (realistically probably more like $80k) vehicle. Aluminum body panels for luxury cars in that class have long been similarly priced. If you bought an all aluminum Audi A8 in 1999 for a similar price, you'd be in a similar situation. If you balk at that kind of repair bill, you shouldn't be considering a car in that price range.

Your comparison of the used Ferrari hood is hardly applicable at all. First it's a used part, second it's a carbon fiber part, not aluminum.

Additionally, why would you expect to pay the price for the part yourself? That's what insurance is for. In reality, Tesla is doing you a favor by making their body panels so expensive because that means it's easier for your car to get declared a total write off in an accident and you can get a new car instead of a busted up repaired car that will never be the same (as anyone who's had a car repaired from a major accident can tell you.)

Lastly, I'd imagine the cost of Tesla body parts has a lot to do with the fact that they are in extremely high demand right now because there's still a waiting list. Any body panel Tesla sells you can't be used to build a car.

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