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Reflections: The ecosystem is moving

whispersystems.org

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Re: Reflections: The ecosystem is moving

#31
post #5
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would apps running on Sandstorm avoid the problems with federation in today's world outlined in the blog post?

It looks to me like your article is really arguing for central control of the code, rather than central control of the serving infrastructure. Having everyone running the same code means changes can be made quickly because only one implementation needs to change. Centralized serving infrastructure makes central control of the code easy. But if you look at mobile, we have central control of the code there without cent…

> central control of the code

That's just an excuse to not implement backwards compatibility in the protocol. Central control is also a security risk, as we've seen recently with Apple and the FBI. If the code is controlled centrally, the FBI (or whomever) only has to strong-arm one target.

> gets a notification and can click one button to update their copy

That sounds like you're trying to keep the user in control, which is great. I haven't head of Sandstorm before, but it sounds interesting.

Have you considered the problem of forced updates? I'm not sure there is a good way to protect against the FBI trying something similar to the recent drama with Apple, where they order you to force a "special" update on {someone,everyone}.

Re: Reflections: The ecosystem is moving

#32
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's precisely the fact that Moxie is so credible on this topic that makes his post so frustrating. I believe that he's telling the truth as he sees it, and I believe that he's as well-situated as anyone could be to pull off a white-hat secure messaging system, so if he says it can't be done with federation, it's awfully hard for me to assert that he's wrong. The problem is that I don't see the point of doing any of…

I hesitate to get all Clay Shirkey here, but I think this is fundamentally different from media conglomerates and Bell Systems, given that now anyone has the ability to build their own overlay service with relatively minimal investment. Part of what I've been noticing is that we have these "walled gardens" today that people consider to be synonymous with "lock in," but it's actually easier for people to move from Vib…

I get what you are saying about it being easier to move from one walled garden to another (based on the evidence that those moves happen more often than moves from between email providers)... but there is such a huge caveat that those moves are never a move chosen by an individual.

I cannot, as an individual, choose to move from one walled garden messenger app to another - if I do, I cannot message those people that don't. I am stuck going along with the group. This is ok in a lot cases (when the group's priorities line up with mine), but sometimes the things that are important to the group are different than the things that are important to me. For example, I might prioritize security over ease of use, but since the group doesn't, I will never get my wish, and I am stuck on a service that sacrifices security for ease of use.

Re: Reflections: The ecosystem is moving

#33
The term "federation" has been overused, misused and abused. At it's base layer, Federation can be thought of as process that unifies things and the people using the things in a way that is reproducible at a future date. Within the context of the Internet and Software (the cloud), Federation should mean "federated use of computer resources" and extend the three primitives of the cloud to be used by all, at will:

1. Compute - allows the transformation of one type of data to another.

2. Storage - allows the storage of data.

3. Network - allows the transfer of data from compute to storage, or vice versa.

Federation's historic constituents have been standards, payments and identity. In order for cloud federation to be viable, the primitives above must be able to be used in a way that allows some type of "standardized trust" to be applied, some type of identity to be associated with it, and some way of paying for the resources used.

One possible solution for implementing a Federated Cloud of Clouds is to use cryptocurrencies to pay for the processing of data, identify who's data it might be, and then encapsulate the data being federated into some type of standard. I have explored a generalized solution for this and have presented it to a few peers. It seems doable, if we can mobilize the development community's intent to change how software is written.

BTW, I don't consider "standards" to be anything other than a light consensus mechanism applied to a set of data which is then made immutable. One might consider a blockchain a "standard" by the evidence it is unchanging, once created.

Federation will only occur once we've moved infrastructure to using cryptocurrencies for deployments. It will also require a radical shift in the way we think about how software is written and paid for.

Re: Reflections: The ecosystem is moving

#34
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's precisely the fact that Moxie is so credible on this topic that makes his post so frustrating. I believe that he's telling the truth as he sees it, and I believe that he's as well-situated as anyone could be to pull off a white-hat secure messaging system, so if he says it can't be done with federation, it's awfully hard for me to assert that he's wrong. The problem is that I don't see the point of doing any of…

I hesitate to get all Clay Shirkey here, but I think this is fundamentally different from media conglomerates and Bell Systems, given that now anyone has the ability to build their own overlay service with relatively minimal investment. Part of what I've been noticing is that we have these "walled gardens" today that people consider to be synonymous with "lock in," but it's actually easier for people to move from Vib…

> it's actually easier for people to move from Viber to WhatsApp to Telegram to Signal today than it is for people to move from gmail to yahoo mail.

That's only because those apps aren't used for anything complex, while email goes in all kinds of automation and long term storage.

Ant that's only because email is some stable technology that you can count on working without "staying in contact", or "checking you got it". (Even if many people will do those things.)

Re: Reflections: The ecosystem is moving

#37
post #31
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks to me like your article is really arguing for central control of the code, rather than central control of the serving infrastructure. Having everyone running the same code means changes can be made quickly because only one implementation needs to change. Centralized serving infrastructure makes central control of the code easy. But if you look at mobile, we have central control of the code there without cent…

> central control of the code That's just an excuse to not implement backwards compatibility in the protocol. Central control is also a security risk, as we've seen recently with Apple and the FBI. If the code is controlled centrally, the FBI (or whomever) only has to strong-arm one target. > gets a notification and can click one button to update their copy That sounds like you're trying to keep the user in control,…

There's certainly a trade-off here. I think that making updates as frictionless as possible is overall a big win for security and development velocity. The down side is, of course, that malicious updates take effect more quickly.

FWIW, Sandstorm is already designed to limit the possible damage from malicious apps in general, by making sure each app has only the minimum privileges it needs to do its job (and making sure the UX to grant said privileges is painless for the user). For example, we've seen quite a few security vulnerabilities in apps that were largely mitigated when running the app on Sandstorm:

https://docs.sandstorm.io/en/latest/using/security-non-event...

Hypothetically, in the Sandstorm model, you could architect a messaging app which is incapable of leaking messages to a third party: for each contact, you would create a separate grain (fine-grained instance, in Sandstorm terminology) of the app, and you would permit that grain to communicate only with that contact's corresponding grain they created for you. If the app cannot communicate with other grains of itself -- much less third parties -- then it cannot leak any communications.

Obviously, there are a lot of UX questions raised by this design. It is a goal of the Sandstorm project to solve those UX issues, and we believe they are solvable, but I can't claim to have all the answers today. More likely what you'd run today is a single grain which can talk to all your contacts. In this case an evil app update could almost certainly find a way to covertly leak any message through the network of contacts.

(And, of course, another issue, if communications are crossing the internet, is traffic analysis and covert channels embedded therein.)

So, yeah, there may or may not be a good technical solution here. But on the bright side, the Apple-FBI case seems to indicate that the government doesn't have the power to compel false signatures on code updates. I can only hope that interpretation stands and is reinforced over time.

Re: Reflections: The ecosystem is moving

#38
post #28
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that Signal exists, and I can use it every day with friends and coworkers, is evidence that we are not locked in. No one is making money from Signal, and anyone who uses Signal can switch to any of ten different (less secure) apps in five minutes. And if Signal goes away or whatever, we can build our own! The only thing stopping us is that we are a lot worse at designing crypto than Moxie and Trevor ;)

> Signal exists Only if you have an Android device with a mobile phone number.

Signal does not require an Android device.

Re: Reflections: The ecosystem is moving

#40
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hesitate to get all Clay Shirkey here, but I think this is fundamentally different from media conglomerates and Bell Systems, given that now anyone has the ability to build their own overlay service with relatively minimal investment. Part of what I've been noticing is that we have these "walled gardens" today that people consider to be synonymous with "lock in," but it's actually easier for people to move from Vib…

I get what you are saying about it being easier to move from one walled garden to another (based on the evidence that those moves happen more often than moves from between email providers)... but there is such a huge caveat that those moves are never a move chosen by an individual. I cannot, as an individual, choose to move from one walled garden messenger app to another - if I do, I cannot message those people that…

Wouldn't you still have that problem with a federated system? You could roll your own uber-secure decentralized messaging protocol right now, if you wanted, but if nobody else adopts it then you're basically SOL.
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