Yeah... employers don't care much about seeing such letter, especially since a lot of them are fake.
The German reference letter system
31–40 of 57 posts
Re: The German reference letter system
#32I live and work in Switzerland. I have some of these reference letters. About twenty years ago there was a backlash against the codes, so I got some reference letters with a declaration that they weren't «coded».
I never worked for big corporations. Once one of the founders did the HR herself, but she was not a HR person and hated the codes herself. Another time I was asked to write my reference letter myself.
My opinion is that Germany has painted itself into a corner. The requirements are contradictory in itself. It's not possible to be truthful and generous at the same time. However the employers are obligated, and between a rock and a hard place. Either the employee sues them because the reference letter is not benevolent enough or another employer sues them because the reference letter was not truthful.
So HR invented the codes, but not all employees were easily duped. The saga goes on.
Re: The German reference letter system
#33I prefer the reference letter system over the personal references system popular in the US because the letter decouples you from former employers. They don't get calls every time you're in talks with a recruiter. The amount of information that's passed along is standardized (even if it's a weird standard, but see below) and better controlled. It's possible to request interim reports, and when doing it semi-regularly…
In France you have a certificate of employment, "that guy was employed from that date to that date, for this job, and he leaves with/without strings attached" (non-competes, etc.) No judgement of valor, no personal stuff, it confirms the dates, the name of the company and the job title (be careful if you have been promoted internally without your official title adjusted).
I might have given the wrong impression: at my current job in France, I'm hired by a very corporate guy who spent years working at the State owned energy company, and he required some telephone references and some tests at an external head hunter. My guess is that corporate France still likes to use the Downton Abbey method, but at previous startups it was more about resumé, interviews and actual written code.
Re: The German reference letter system
#34One of the cool things about the biography of John Boyd (http://www.amazon.com/Boyd-Fighter-Pilot-Who-Changed/dp/0316...) was the quoting from and parsing of his performance reviews in the US Air Force.
Re: The German reference letter system
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
In France you have a certificate of employment, "that guy was employed from that date to that date, for this job, and he leaves with/without strings attached" (non-competes, etc.) No judgement of valor, no personal stuff, it confirms the dates, the name of the company and the job title (be careful if you have been promoted internally without your official title adjusted).
I might have given the wrong impression: at my current job in France, I'm hired by a very corporate guy who spent years working at the State owned energy company, and he required some telephone references and some tests at an external head hunter. My guess is that corporate France still likes to use the Downton Abbey method, but at previous startups it was more about resumé, interviews and actual written code.
Contacting former employers or talking about your former employees to a prospective employer is illegal in France. Although it's hard to prove, when they don't ask you directly to give contacts away.
Re: The German reference letter system
#36I got offered a job in Switzerland last year. It was the weirdest experience ever. What I suspect happened was I'd written "scrum certified" on my cv, and the job had "scrum manager" in the title, so the poor people were bound by the law of stupid to interview only people with this string in their cv. They never asked me anything relevant. I code a bunch of languages, I can manage people, yada yada, they didn't care.…
What is in your opinion the right way to check whether you have actually graduated at Oxford and what grades you had if not asking for the official documents that contain this information?
Re: The German reference letter system
#37This goes a lot deeper than the article seems to suggest. There was an quiz on spiegel a while back that went in depth into the hidden meanings that only HR experts can extract from these letters ( http://www.spiegel.de/unispiegel/jobundberuf/arbeitszeugnis-... ). My wife who works in HR managed to get them all correct, but I would have missed a lot of the explicit meanings inside the numerous formulations. In genera…
Haha I really got a kick out of this one.
> Seine Geselligkeit trug zur Verbesserung des Betriebsklimas bei.
"His socialibility improved the work atmosphere"
> Heißt übersetzt: Er trank gerne mal einen Schnaps während der Arbeit.
"This really means he enjoyed drinking liquor on the job"
Re: The German reference letter system
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
I might have given the wrong impression: at my current job in France, I'm hired by a very corporate guy who spent years working at the State owned energy company, and he required some telephone references and some tests at an external head hunter. My guess is that corporate France still likes to use the Downton Abbey method, but at previous startups it was more about resumé, interviews and actual written code.
Contacting former employers or talking about your former employees to a prospective employer is illegal in France. Although it's hard to prove, when they don't ask you directly to give contacts away.
I did ask my former bosses first, and asked them to give the right speech calibrated for the job posting. I think it's the last time I go through this process, because the job is not worth the effort, neither in personal fulfillment nor in salary, at least I tried the "startup by the corporate guy" route.
Re: The German reference letter system
#39I got offered a job in Switzerland last year. It was the weirdest experience ever. What I suspect happened was I'd written "scrum certified" on my cv, and the job had "scrum manager" in the title, so the poor people were bound by the law of stupid to interview only people with this string in their cv. They never asked me anything relevant. I code a bunch of languages, I can manage people, yada yada, they didn't care.…
What is in your opinion the right way to check whether you have actually graduated at Oxford and what grades you had if not asking for the official documents that contain this information?
The right way is to ask for the documents.
The right question is whether a guy who is over a decade out needs to do so, as the degree is not evidence of competence when it's been that long.
Of course it's possible they went with getting paperwork rather than using the interview as an opportunity to ask relevant questions. Interviewing is hard.
Re: The German reference letter system
#40Haven't read all the comments, but the ones I read didn't state it so here comes a tip for people who don't know:
If you want an evaluation letter after finishing a job present your manager with one you prepared, that he only needs to sign and he will be happy with it, more often than not, because it means less work for him. He also doesn't know the terms and googles it just like you.