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How my company is lowering the bar to increase diversity

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Re: How my company is lowering the bar to increase diversity

#31
post #4

> My company brought in an diversity activist to speak about improving diversity at our company. She told us that it is sexist to prefer to hire people with a college degree because more men than women graduate with degrees in CS. Instead we are told to assume that all people are equally qualified regardless of their education. This does not pass the smell test. Sure, a certain type of "diversity activist" might say…

Since when did a college degree become a requirement for programming, or indicate a higher quality of programmer? I know CS graduates who have no ability to program. Half of these big companies have been started by dropouts, and the oldest ones were started when there was no such thing as a CS degree.

The fact that a CS degree is neither necessary nor sufficient for being a good programmer does not mean it is a worthless data point.

Re: How my company is lowering the bar to increase diversity

#32
post #22

I've actually been given the same advice on HN regarding "not looking for a portfolio" since it excludes women. I think it's pretty disparaging to say women don't have the time for writing some code outside of work because of childcare commitments (for everyone involved - including the father of the child who's immediately and implicitly branded as off-scene or not pulling his weight). "Cultural fit" in my experience…

I think a better way to put this would be, don't penalize women for not participating in open source. There are a number of societal/cultural factors that preclude or push women out of open source, so have some understanding of that when interviewing women.

Re: How my company is lowering the bar to increase diversity

#33
post #4

> My company brought in an diversity activist to speak about improving diversity at our company. She told us that it is sexist to prefer to hire people with a college degree because more men than women graduate with degrees in CS. Instead we are told to assume that all people are equally qualified regardless of their education. This does not pass the smell test. Sure, a certain type of "diversity activist" might say…

Sorry that it's hard to believe. My CEO was previously an activist so the people brought in to talk are definitely outside what you would expect in corporate America.

Unfortunately it's hard to find sources for this except for internal videos.

A quote from one of the trainers that gets at the same idea:

"In sourcing diverse candidates, it is imperative to avoid criteria that are inherently biased, like using school selectivity and previous company as a proxy for performance or as a signal that someone is a strong candidate.

Instead of focusing on previous companies or schools, which limits the talent pool, you should focus on relevant skills. For example, if Google is typically used as a signal that someone is a good candidate, push yourselves and your clients to articulate why that's the case. Is it the experience working at a large company that's useful?"

Re: How my company is lowering the bar to increase diversity

#34
post #32
post #22

I've actually been given the same advice on HN regarding "not looking for a portfolio" since it excludes women. I think it's pretty disparaging to say women don't have the time for writing some code outside of work because of childcare commitments (for everyone involved - including the father of the child who's immediately and implicitly branded as off-scene or not pulling his weight). "Cultural fit" in my experience…

I think a better way to put this would be, don't penalize women for not participating in open source. There are a number of societal/cultural factors that preclude or push women out of open source, so have some understanding of that when interviewing women.

It doesn't have to be open source, private repos, private gitlab etc all fine.

Re: How my company is lowering the bar to increase diversity

#35

Summary: not discriminating against applicants before speaking to them based on where they're from, where they've worked, what school they went to, how long they've been in the profession, and who they know that you know is equivalent to "lowering the bar." [points 2,3,4,5,6,7,9] In addition, pretend like not ruling people out before you've spoken to them is equivalent to not reviewing their work, or giving them a "d…

>edit: and about "open source" contributions; ethnic minorities and women are far more likely to have worked in large corporations rather than in open source or startups, because those companies are held to a higher standard in their behavior towards minorities than the kind of self-assembling social clubs that this article (and site) are focused on.

Open source software is probably the single most meritocratic resume-building opportunity I've ever seen in any industry.

If you don't like the fact that many minorities and women, far from being denied this opportunity, are simply declining to take advantage of it (as most developers do, by the way), then to paraphrase Richard Feynman, perhaps you should go find another universe where the conditions are more appealing to your sensibilities.

Or to put it another way, if you think that a submission on github containing a great new feature and some long overdue bugfixes for an open source project would get rejected because the submitter was black, then the part of your mind that desperately needs certain groups of people to be Irreparably Downtrodden is causing you to lose a great deal of your grip on reality.

Re: How my company is lowering the bar to increase diversity

#36
post #22

I've actually been given the same advice on HN regarding "not looking for a portfolio" since it excludes women. I think it's pretty disparaging to say women don't have the time for writing some code outside of work because of childcare commitments (for everyone involved - including the father of the child who's immediately and implicitly branded as off-scene or not pulling his weight). "Cultural fit" in my experience…

I've been given the "not looking for a portfolio" one before, but it was explained in more detail to me as - to put work up online opens yourself up to criticism, and given the sexism in our industry, this criticism can more easily become abuse when targeted at women, and therefore there are a not-insignificant group of women who do not publish code on GitHub because of abuse - this issue affects men less, therefore,…

I agree that makes more sense than the childcare argument. I'd still wonder though - what are this person's interests in tech? What do they do in pursuing those interests?

I think these are legitimate questions, since one of the best metrics for success in software is the level of interest you hold in it.

Re: How my company is lowering the bar to increase diversity

#37
post #34
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a better way to put this would be, don't penalize women for not participating in open source. There are a number of societal/cultural factors that preclude or push women out of open source, so have some understanding of that when interviewing women.

It doesn't have to be open source, private repos, private gitlab etc all fine.

One of the societal/cultural factors I'm talking about is the caregiver's burden. Children, the elderly, and the infirmed are typically(at least in the US) cared for by women. This is a significant time suck. I'm just saying you shouldn't penalize a woman for not doing side projects, she may have more important shit to do in her nonworking hours.

And for that matter, you shouldn't penalize anyone for not writing a ton of code in their free time, there are other things in life, and more demands on your time the older you get. And anecdotally, some of the better developers I know write 0 lines of code in their off hours, they are consummate professionals but leave it at work.

Re: How my company is lowering the bar to increase diversity

#38
This article is what happens when you push diversity by fiat and don't extend the initiative beyond recruiting. Even when programs like this are well-intentioned, you can see the extremely destructive fallout: the author and those like him are going to look at all "diverse" employees and think, "You got a free pass. You're not as good as everyone else."

Let's flip all these changes around to show how it's not about "lowering the bar", it's about realizing that a one-size-fits-all "bar" isn't an effective hiring method in the long run.

1. Update your interview scoring methodology to account for non-traditional backgrounds. (Extra points for ethnicity, e.g., are a detrimental hack that shows how your system is broken.)

2. Don't discount candidates because of their degrees. (While a CS degree may be an indicator of qualification, its absence isn't a disqualifier.)

3. Don't discount candidates because of their educational institutions. (While a top college may be an indicator of quality, I'd rather hire the best candidate from a second- or third-tier school than a middling candidate from an Ivy.)

4. Expand your outbound candidate search to non-traditional channels. (See #3.)

5. Don't discount non-traditional industry experience. (A developer outside of the software industry may be just as good.)

6. Don't discount candidates because of their previous employers. (An ex-Googler may rightfully be an impressive candidate, but they also might be a low-performer.)

7. Don't conflate "years of experience" with "experience". (Very often, 15 years of experience is 1 year of experience repeated 15 times. No one has 15 years of experience in Node.js.)

8. Don't discount a lack of "extracurriculars" like OSS, volunteerism, or other factors.

9. Don't rely on referrals. (You can't staff a company entirely with "friends-of-friends".)

All of these statements are focused on broadening your perspective and getting away from statistics. Yes, a Stanford CS major with 15 years of experience at Google and an awesome GitHub profile is probably a good candidate. But a developer from Temple with 8 years of experience in the retail industry may be just as good.

Yes: it will take more effort to find those candidates, and your signal-to-noise ratio may go down, but your reward comes in the form of awesome people you never would have found before. Diversity will be a natural by-product, and a way to measure your progress.

Re: How my company is lowering the bar to increase diversity

#39

Fascinating. It mostly seems you're company is taking a poor approach to diversity, and doing even worse at communicating and gaining buy-in from existing employees. With the exception of #1, it seems all of these strategies are aimed at eliminating signals that skew heavily toward elite-educated men so that the top of your funnel is more diverse. So perhaps the real issue is that the hiring process allows for "many…

>With the exception of #1, it seems all of these strategies are aimed at eliminating signals that skew heavily toward elite-educated men so that the top of your funnel is more diverse.

The top of a company's funnel could also be made more diverse by starting with "OK, there are 7+ billion people on the planet..." - that doesn't make it a good idea.

>And perhaps there aren't enough resources to improve said process and handle a greater volume of potentially unqualified applicants.

That's how you handle a great volume of applicants - you look for indicators of skill. None of them are necessary or sufficient; they just increase the likelihood that this will be a good hire a little bit. Giving every single person who is able to use the "resume" template in Microsoft Word an in-person interview would catch those false negatives you're missing, but it would be ridiculously inefficient.

Or am I to assume that when you want to hire a plumber you canvass your neighborhood door-to-door so you dont miss out on someone who might be qualified but just drummed out of the plumbing industry for institutional reasons?

Although I do like how you dismissed points 2-8 with a simple handwaving of "elite males are more likely to score higher on these points, so they're no good."

Not to mention the fact that that argument does virtually nothing to contracdict point #8. If youre someone who truly believes they're a Great Programmer Who's Not Being Given a Chance Due To White Male Supremacy, a github profile is the greatest arrow in your quiver that you could possibly dream of.

Re: How my company is lowering the bar to increase diversity

#40
post #37
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't have to be open source, private repos, private gitlab etc all fine.

One of the societal/cultural factors I'm talking about is the caregiver's burden. Children, the elderly, and the infirmed are typically(at least in the US) cared for by women. This is a significant time suck. I'm just saying you shouldn't penalize a woman for not doing side projects, she may have more important shit to do in her nonworking hours. And for that matter, you shouldn't penalize anyone for not writing a to…

So there's no correlation in skill between the people that put hours of their own time into honing their craft, and those that don't?
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