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A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

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Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#31

Post by _Understated_ »

amelius wrote: post #5

I'm still wondering about one thing: if everybody has a basic income, then who will be doing the dirty jobs like collecting our waste? Will the price for waste collecting go up? And will there then be a kind of economic "inversion", where the intellectual people prefer to work on interesting stuff at the expense of money, while the "non-intellectual" (need a better word here) people will make all the money doing the…

I haven't read into it too much at the moment as it's still a bit of a pipe-dream just now although it's looking more likely to change but I sit on the fence at this time (with a lean towards "no").

I don't see that happening to be honest but I do see something worse...

Won't the price of everything go up for those that don't currently need the welfare system? Is this a sort of stealth tax increase on the middle class?

I live in the UK and pay a lot into the system but I am by no means rich. I don't claim anything except child benefit (dunno how I qualify but I do... for £80 a month or something).

If you remove the need for someone currently on welfare to take a min-wage job then that means the job either doesn't get done or the salary for it must go up. So, if it goes up, then that company's price will go up or they face going out of business.

If they manage to stay in business, I will need to pay more to use their service than I did before but if they go out of business because I am not willing to pay it, they end up claiming welfare and my tax goes up to pay for it.

Honestly, I don't see an upside for anyone except those that can't/won't work!

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#32

Post by unsigner »

I don't see how the government can be shrunk, short of violent collapse. UBI will be introduced, and not a single government program will be dropped, not a single government official laid off; wars, bailouts and $500 toilet seats will continue, but we'll have to tax, borrow or print a few more billions (or trillions, in the case of US-sized economies - I live in a small country).

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#33

Post by rmc »

amelius wrote: post #5

I'm still wondering about one thing: if everybody has a basic income, then who will be doing the dirty jobs like collecting our waste? Will the price for waste collecting go up? And will there then be a kind of economic "inversion", where the intellectual people prefer to work on interesting stuff at the expense of money, while the "non-intellectual" (need a better word here) people will make all the money doing the…

Higher wages for dirty jobs would certainly spur innovation in labour saving devices to reduce the amount of manual labour.

"Dirty" jobs being paid more certainly does sound a little more ethical than today, where those with little options have to work those dirty jobs to keep their house and to eat, and they are paid low.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#34

Post by empressplay »

Won't a basic income just increase inflation? Minimum-wage jobs would by necessity then need to pay more, which would then cause the costs of goods and services to go up, which would then make living more expensive, necessitating an increase in the basic income and so forth...?

For example, say I'm a landlord. If everyone all of a sudden had an additional "base" income, why wouldn't I increase my rents to absorb at least a portion of that? Then, only people who had a job would still be able to afford to rent from me, while those on the basic income would be unable to afford it. I'm not out either way.

So you would say you need to introduce legislation to stop me from doing that, but the free market would abhor that and likely accuse you of being a communist. So you can't. So I'm failing to see the point of the whole exercise?

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#35

Post by microtonal »

arximboldi wrote: post #23
amelius wrote: post #5

I'm still wondering about one thing: if everybody has a basic income, then who will be doing the dirty jobs like collecting our waste? Will the price for waste collecting go up? And will there then be a kind of economic "inversion", where the intellectual people prefer to work on interesting stuff at the expense of money, while the "non-intellectual" (need a better word here) people will make all the money doing the…

I don't know if that would actually be the case, but if it were, the question would be: is it actually a bad thing? I don't see any moral justification for a software engineer earning more than someone collecting waste [1]. In fact, it is normal that as our society gets more educated and the supply of unskilled workers goes down, a lot of hard manual labor will become expensive. This is already the case with mining,…

I don't see any moral justification for a software engineer earning more than someone collecting waste [1].

In general I agree. However, besides education costs (I have quite many friends who have a sizeable loan), software engineers also enter the workforce quite a bit later. E.g., taking Netherlands as an example:

- Waste collector: age 12-16 VMBO

- Software engineer: age 12-18 VWO, age 18-23 BA+MA university

Also, very few students actually finish university in time. So, they are usually 24 or 25 when they are on the market. So, there would be less opportunity to build up a pension at equal wages.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#36

Post by fsloth »

amelius wrote: post #5

I'm still wondering about one thing: if everybody has a basic income, then who will be doing the dirty jobs like collecting our waste? Will the price for waste collecting go up? And will there then be a kind of economic "inversion", where the intellectual people prefer to work on interesting stuff at the expense of money, while the "non-intellectual" (need a better word here) people will make all the money doing the…

I would presume the quality of low-paying low-income jobs will increase. If people have the opportunity to leave there is an actual business incentive to treat employees well. I would presume the overall "quality" of the workforce would increase, as the detrimental effects of poverty on cognitive development and capacity is well known.

So who will do the dirty jobs? I presume ways are found in which to make them less distasteful. They are not about "dirtyness" per se, but about application of high dexterity manual labour on various tasks.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#37

Post by mseebach »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #6

>> "But in the U.S., many liberals see it as naive and a distraction from more practical priorities, such as a $15 minimum wage and paid family leave." I can't see how they could believe this. First of all a minimum wage becomes unimportant as you should hypothetically have enough money to support the kind of lifestyle a minimum wage job would provide without working. Secondly, as it's no longer financially critical…

The biggest problem with the UBI debate is that few people explicitly name the amounts they imagine. You seem to imply a level near the minimum wage, but that's flat out impossible. The total US tax revenue is around $20k/year/person, so a realistic UBI is upper bounded at perhaps $2-300/month (full time at $15 is about $2,600/month) - and at 20% of total revenue, that would have to replace substantial portions of existing social programs to be viable.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#39

Post by ramblerman »

empressplay wrote: post #34

Won't a basic income just increase inflation? Minimum-wage jobs would by necessity then need to pay more, which would then cause the costs of goods and services to go up, which would then make living more expensive, necessitating an increase in the basic income and so forth...? For example, say I'm a landlord. If everyone all of a sudden had an additional "base" income, why wouldn't I increase my rents to absorb at l…

> Minimum-wage jobs would by necessity then need to pay more

The whole reason the debate is becoming so prominent now is just because minimum-wage jobs and even non minimum wage jobs will be replaced by robots/ai. The goods may even become cheaper.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#40

Post by adaml_623 »

empressplay wrote: post #34

Won't a basic income just increase inflation? Minimum-wage jobs would by necessity then need to pay more, which would then cause the costs of goods and services to go up, which would then make living more expensive, necessitating an increase in the basic income and so forth...? For example, say I'm a landlord. If everyone all of a sudden had an additional "base" income, why wouldn't I increase my rents to absorb at l…

You need to read some analysis of this before asking basic questions like that. There are factors like unemployment rate, tax, and government efficiency to consider.
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