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College is a waste of time and money for kids

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Re: College is a waste of time and money for kids

#31

Post by timr »

rcoder wrote: post #15

I think most of the comments here are missing the key argument in this article: namely that in addition to college being a poor fit for many potential students, there are some much better, more productive ways that young people could spend the time in the years immediately following high school. The suggestions to encourage your kid to practice one skill, or start a business, are spot-on, at least from an economic PO…

Oh, blah. I'll grant you that people (in this country) would be better served by slowing down a bit, but I wouldn't encourage a high school kid to start a business instead of going to college.

Maybe it's a good idea for a kid to work on his "startup" when he's barely old enough to shave, but probably not. The chances of success aren't higher when you're young and under-educated (likely the opposite), and you'll be squandering the one time in your life when you're allowed to get away with things and make mistakes.

Don't want to go to college? Fine. Travel the world. Have adventures. Play in a band. Make friends. Meet women. You're not likely to get the chance later, and you'll be a more compelling, charismatic person for the experience. Then go to college.

Once you've graduated, you'll have the rest of your life to start companies (and the charisma and friends you've picked up will help you on your way).

Re: College is a waste of time and money for kids

#32

Post by krschultz »

falsestprophet wrote: post #10
krschultz wrote: post #4

Hes off the mark by a long shot. Is college right for everyone? No, and on both sides of the equation. A very small group of people are too smart for it, get too constrained by it, etc. There is a much larger group of people who are not smart enough for it, or don't work hard enough to get there. For everyone else, it makes sense. To say that you won't make up the money (and he says 200,000 - 400,000, that is a 50,00…

I still have not learned a lot in college, but I leaned enough about the time-value of money to understand your analysis is deeply flawed.

Of course it is horribly inaccurate but his numbers are pulled out of thin air. If you could find a way to justify skipping college economically, for real people, I'm all ears. In fact money wise, college is one of the best investments you can ever make, there are countless studies to back that up. I really don't see what the big rush to skip college is. Do you really think that starting a company 4 years sooner is that big deal? If so then your business is going to fail because it is dependent on ONE idea rather than the skill of the people involved. A good group of people will find a new idea when need be, the world has plenty of problems to solve. So what are you in a rush to do? Work? You have all your life to do that. I think that the experiance of college when you are 18-22 is a thing you either do or you don't, there is no going back to do it later. On the other hand, you can start a business, travel, learn things, and work for the rest of your life. College is what you make of it, no one forces you to do anything here. I can't imagine being bored, I have about twice as much I would like to do as I have time for, the people who say it is a "waste of time" are ones with no initiative.

Re: College is a waste of time and money for kids

#33

Post by ardit33 »

curi wrote: post #23
ardit33 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Believe it or not, you can learn, get decent grades, party and get laid, and have scholarhips all at the same time. Those people that skip this, are soreley missing a great experience of their life. Remember, work will be there for the rest of your life. Don't just rush into it. From 24 to 64, that's 40 years or working for most people. you can start your startup just as well as 25, as you could at 20, but probably y…

it amuses me that people advocate the importance of college -- supposedly an educational institution -- based in part on parties and sex. and in part based on avoiding work. if you can pay for college, you could pay less to not work or go to college. and still party and have sex, if that's what you care about.

It amuses me how some people say that college is not worth their time and money. Maybe you stop taking easy clases? Get the challenging ones? Don't overpay for school?

Nobody is measuring the importance of school, on how much fun you have with it, but what I am saying is that you can learn a lot, and yet have a great time, and yes even fun. Unless you are sociophobe, scrooge, or something, most humans want some fun on the side.

I thought CS was not that difficult, so I decided to minor in math, which I found it not that difficult so I challenged myself even more, and I decided to minor in Physics, and here I met my match. A hard ass professor, that would teach a lot, but it was almost impossible to get an A. My first ever class, where I felt no matter how much effort I put into it, I couldn't get an A. It taught me about humility, and learning my limitations.

And, yes, I did all that, plus lot's of volunteering, helping with alumni affairs, while having a part time job (washing dishes, and then just a lab proctor) at the same time.

There is nothing more awesome when you learn a lot, and yet can have fun and get laid at the same time.

To all you say that college is waste of time:

1. Maybe you should study something that you are going to get a great return out of it, or it will be challenging enough.

2. You might want to check if you have problems getting socially adjusted.

So, unless you quit school and become a millionare by now, you have no cred on saying college is a waste of time. College is a waste of time for many, b/c they don't use it. To those that are smart enough, it is a great learning experience. To those that think are too smart for college, maybe they are not taking the right/classes or programs. If you are a genius, what prevents you from finishing it in two years, get a masters, get a phd. and become the next albert einstein, invent cold fusion, a cure for H1V or something great? You can do that in college. It allows very smart people, to have access to great equipment, grant money and other resarch, things that you probably wont have in your own basement.

Re: College is a waste of time and money for kids

#34

Post by pchristensen »

wallflower wrote: post #21

I read an article once that suggested that colleges and universities are part of a mafia-type organization that extorts parents/students to pay high tuition fees...otherwise the student won't be able to get a decent white-collar job as an adult (the whole college degree required deal)

Nah, there's just not a good way to rate and rank potential job candidates without actually taking the time to get to know them. Finishing college is just an imperfect proxy for being smart and working hard, and companies use it as a baseline because it puts the onus on students/employees to attain. If there was a way for companies to more accurately rank candidates (without actually requiring more work on the company's part), they'd use that instead. Universities are more than happy to facilitate this.

See also http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2007/10/the-greatest...

Re: College is a waste of time and money for kids

#35

Post by krschultz »

rcoder wrote: post #16
krschultz wrote: post #4

Hes off the mark by a long shot. Is college right for everyone? No, and on both sides of the equation. A very small group of people are too smart for it, get too constrained by it, etc. There is a much larger group of people who are not smart enough for it, or don't work hard enough to get there. For everyone else, it makes sense. To say that you won't make up the money (and he says 200,000 - 400,000, that is a 50,00…

$50,000 per year is not actually that high in the grand scheme of things as a total cost to attend a private college, since most undergrads depend heavily on their parents for financial support. If you subtract a base tuition of $35,000 from that, you're left with $15,000 per year as total living expenses. That's barely over $1200, and has to cover not only rent and food, but textbooks, computers, and other costs of…

Yea, but that would assume a base tuition of 35,000, which there is no reason to spend. Go to a state school if the money is an issue, out of state to Penn State, considered one of the more expensive state schools, is 24,000 a year. That leaves 26,000 a year for living expenses. In state is even less. At my school it is 18,000 out of state and 7,000 in state and we're top 25 nationwide in both of my majors. My apartment is one of the nicer ones on campus and it is $700 a month, plus $500 for food and expenses, plus 2,000 for books and supplies, I'm barely up to 35,000 and that is with generous allouances and an expensive apartment. In state you could be doing it for 20,000 a year. The people who claim college is outrageous are far from the ground level. I don't know anyone who couldn't work it out by taking loans and going to a state school, everyone quotes these private schools and their prices but that is a whole different ball game. The reality is that college is not all that expensive in the short term, and it is nothing in the long term.

Re: College is a waste of time and money for kids

#36

Post by ardit33 »

mpc wrote: post #8
run4yourlives wrote: post #3

I was with him right until he say not to travel. Travel is the single biggest step in developing a proper perspective of life in this world, and what part you'll choose to play in the future. At 25, you can tell if someone has traveled or not by having a 15 minute conversation with them. The traveled ones are always much more rational in thought, and open in mind, and aware of the possibilities. Non traveled folk ten…

I'm sorry but I disagree. Traveling is certainly something that is worthwhile, but it's hardly the determining factor in one's personal development that you're making it out to be. I've been to a lot of places, and I still value things like the books that I've read, personal relationships, real experience etc etc a lot more. Sometimes all travel contributes to is pretentiousness.

sorry, but taking a cruise to bahamas,or a two weeks trip to europe doesn't make one a "well traveled" being. Living in a different country for a while, it will open you a whole world of differnt perspective, and experience things that you just don't when visiting a place for a few days.

yes, just the fact of knowing a foreign language, (well), tells a lot about a person.

Re: College is a waste of time and money for kids

#38

Post by geebee »

This is a great article, even though I disagree with most of it. I think it's a great article because the conventional wisdom about college does need to be challenged. Just like the notion that you have to attend a prestigious college to be successful needs to be debunked, the notion that you have to attend college at all should be challenged.

I'd agree wholeheartedly with anyone who said that college should not be a default choice. There are all kinds of amazing opportunities for learning now that don't require a degree. He had me while he was arguing that college can be a big waste of time for a lot of people - but he starts to lose me when he starts to argue against college.

Personally, I have my doubts about anyone learning advanced math or physics without an intellectual environment similar to the one you'll get at college. I learned from my peers in a study group at least as much as from my professors. I suppose you don't strictly have to be enrolled - and maybe you could view webcasts and form a general study group outside the university - but that would be an argument against a formal degree, not an argument against a college education.

Re: College is a waste of time and money for kids

#39

Post by geebee »

geebee wrote: post #38

This is a great article, even though I disagree with most of it. I think it's a great article because the conventional wisdom about college does need to be challenged. Just like the notion that you have to attend a prestigious college to be successful needs to be debunked, the notion that you have to attend college at all should be challenged. I'd agree wholeheartedly with anyone who said that college should not be a…

One thing to add - he's not totally off base about the 400K price tag. If you could earn 50K/year as a high school grad, that's 200K in lost earnings (though it would be taxed). Stanford's tuition is about 40K/year now, right? So there's another 160K. Not too far off (I wouldn't count living expenses, because those would be incurred regardless of whether you were in college).

A high school grad with no skills isn't going to earn 50K a year as a dishwasher. But someone smart enough to get through Computer Science at MIT might easily blow through the 50K/year estimate. So the opportunity cost could actually be much higher than 400K.

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