Live data from Hacker News

How to Hack an Election

bloomberg.com

31–40 of 96 posts

Re: How to Hack an Election

#31
post #4

This shouldn't be a surprise: I think most HN members know that it's possible; we know that the rewards (incredible power, status, and everything you can get with them includig the spoils of office) are worth the investment (only $600K for this solution!); we know that there are many people, including politicians, unsavory enough to do it. The question is, why do we pretend it's not happening until there's a smoking…

A few reasons I can think of: 1) Hacking voting machines to a significant extent would require a team of people, not just one guy, which dramatically increases the risk of exposure. 2) The reported vote count is usually very close to the predicted vote count, and always very close to exit polling results. The hacked results would need to be very close to the real results, or be combined with control over a huge numbe…

None of this squares with what I have previously been told about US elections.

1. I have seen video demonstrations wherein one person with opportunistic unsupervised access to a voting machine can hack it to affect every issue on the ballot within five minutes. Given the security at many polling places in the US, this easily extrapolates to one person able to hack all machines at a given polling place prior to election day, and possibly repeat the effort at several other nearby polling places within counties using the same type of machine.

Other hacks target the central tabulators, and don't require touching the voting machines at all. Opportunistic timing to enjoy unsupervised access between the election and results certification is a bit more critical to these.

2. Exit polls have frequently been "adjusted" in the US to more closely match the actual elections results. In the UK, this is called the Shy Tory Factor[0] or Shy Labour Factor, and has existed since 1992. The US has had the Tom Bradley Effect[1] since 1982.

This is usually explained by presuming that the exit polling result is inaccurate. It is never seriously considered in public that vote fraud may be becoming more severe. Yet I saw a statistical analysis of actual voting results, differentiated by the model of voting machine, that showed a clear, obvious bias towards certain choices of specific issues. The poll adjustment factor can easily be explained by the hypothesis that people remain as honest as ever in exit polls, but the voting process itself has become less honest.

3. Recounts will not uncover fraud if the records necessary for the recount are subject to the same controls as the records used for the first official count. If the voting machine does not leave a non-electronic record that can be verified by the voter while they are still at the polling place, a recount will just be run on whatever records exist, which may be falsified.

4. Thanks to the winner-take-all elections in the US, and the availability of previous census and elections data, it is possible to identify specific counties as keystones, wherein efforts to sway the vote locally will have disproportionately effective results.

For instance, you examine the "battleground counties" in the "swing states", and hack the central tabulator in that county to give your favorite candidate a 3% advantage by switching an opposing vote 1.5% of the time. You don't tell your party you're doing it. You don't even tell your dog that you're doing it. You just do it. If your guy loses, well, you tried.

Multiply by dozens of technically competent yet unconnected and independent supporters, and you get a significant extent that does not require any team.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shy_Tory_Factor

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_effect

Re: How to Hack an Election

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few reasons I can think of: 1) Hacking voting machines to a significant extent would require a team of people, not just one guy, which dramatically increases the risk of exposure. 2) The reported vote count is usually very close to the predicted vote count, and always very close to exit polling results. The hacked results would need to be very close to the real results, or be combined with control over a huge numbe…

None of this squares with what I have previously been told about US elections. 1. I have seen video demonstrations wherein one person with opportunistic unsupervised access to a voting machine can hack it to affect every issue on the ballot within five minutes. Given the security at many polling places in the US, this easily extrapolates to one person able to hack all machines at a given polling place prior to electi…

You probably don't want to alter the votes in the swing states, because there will be a lot of scrutiny on them. But if you alter a couple of county's results that were assumed to be "safe" to /just/ swing to the other party, more than likely it won't receive any major attention, but could cancel out the delegates from the other county and get you the desired result.

To affect a national election, you'd still need a small army of helpers - "vote smurfs" to inject your votes. Chances are very slim of keeping that quiet.

Re: How to Hack an Election

#34

Ugh. I don't know if the particular people involved here are telling the truth, but I basically know that something like this must be happening, given the incentives involved. Dispiriting, I have to say, since it would be hard to beat this sort of thing without becoming what you're fighting against.

Also, at the end there when they implied that HRC is hiring Rendon for the general election, did anyone else find themselves thinking that this whole story could be a manipulative plant of the very sort they were discussing? Not that I think HRC is above this sort of thing.

well, it is bloomberg lol

Re: How to Hack an Election

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few reasons I can think of: 1) Hacking voting machines to a significant extent would require a team of people, not just one guy, which dramatically increases the risk of exposure. 2) The reported vote count is usually very close to the predicted vote count, and always very close to exit polling results. The hacked results would need to be very close to the real results, or be combined with control over a huge numbe…

None of this squares with what I have previously been told about US elections. 1. I have seen video demonstrations wherein one person with opportunistic unsupervised access to a voting machine can hack it to affect every issue on the ballot within five minutes. Given the security at many polling places in the US, this easily extrapolates to one person able to hack all machines at a given polling place prior to electi…

I still find it odd that we can receive carbon copies of time cards and receipts for ATM visits (..on thermal paper which decays rapidly), yet when it comes to voting for our state elections we have no record of our vote and everything is handed off to 3rd parties with seemingly no provable accountability or transparency.

  "It's not the votes that count, it's who counts the votes."

Re: How to Hack an Election

#36
post #4

This shouldn't be a surprise: I think most HN members know that it's possible; we know that the rewards (incredible power, status, and everything you can get with them includig the spoils of office) are worth the investment (only $600K for this solution!); we know that there are many people, including politicians, unsavory enough to do it. The question is, why do we pretend it's not happening until there's a smoking…

> Consider the U.S. presidential election: The outcome is worth billions each to very many parties worldwide; it's existential to some foreign governments and actors; many in the U.S. have very powerful ideological motives. How much would it cost to hack voting machines? It seems very likely to me that it's happening, though I don't know where or to what extent.

It is largely a question of Cost adjusted by Risk v. Reward.

Running attack ads, social media sockpuppet operations, etc. are legal, effective, and have similar costs. Similarly, you have a nation-wide machine who you endanger when you fuck with the integrity of that machine [i.e. being caught doing anything illegal] already. You've got plenty of options to spend your money on, from the preceding election(s) to seize local and state voting mechanisms to run the game in those states [legally] with tactics that are clearly unethical and immoral [voter suppression, deploying outright lies/euphemisms in the name of controlling the voting population].

These mechanisms are much, much more powerful than "hacking" voting machines due their lack of risk, similar costs, and provide you with a foundation with which to influence future elections. Kansas shifted the vote [~2%] greater than Obama's margin of victory in Florida [.88%] with a single law.

Consider the current situation nationally:

http://www.luc.edu/quinlan/stories/archive/why-attack-ads-wo...

> Although no one jumped from “definitely Bush” to “definitely Kerry,” some students who were leaning toward one candidate did switch to the other side. And in a tightly contested race, like this year’s presidential election, getting even a few people to change their vote can make all the difference in the world.

> They then showed the students one of four political ads and asked them to re-rate their levels of support. Roughly 14 percent of the students said the attack on their candidate made them support him even more, the researchers found. But an equal percentage of students said the advertisement weakened their support and caused them to move closer to the opponent—the one who ran the negative ad.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-democrats-suppress-t...

> In the ongoing fight between Democrats and Republicans over election procedures like voter ID and early voting, the Democrats are supposedly the champions of higher turnout and reducing barriers to participation. But when it comes to scheduling off-cycle elections1 like those taking place today, the Democratic Party is the champion of voter suppression. > Scheduling local elections at odd times appears to be a deliberate strategy aimed at keeping turnout low, which gives more influence to groups like teachers unions that have a direct stake in the election’s outcome.

http://billmoyers.com/2014/10/24/voter-discrimination/

> Governor Chris Christie: Same-Day Voter Registration Is a “Trick” and GOP Needs to Win Gubernatorial Races So They Control “Voting Mechanisms” > Fran Millar: Georgia Senator Complains About Polling Place Being Too Convenient for Black Voters > Doug Preis: An Ohio GOP Chair Says We Shouldn’t Accommodate the “Urban — Read African-American — Voter-Turnout Machine” > Greg Abbott: Texas AG Says Partisan Districting Decisions Are Legal, Even if There Are “Incidental Effects” on Minority Voters > Don Yelton: North Carolina GOP Precinct Chair: Voter ID Law Will “Kick Democrats in the Butt” and Hurt “Lazy Blacks”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/catherine-rampell-vo...

> In the state’s nail-biting gubernatorial race, Republican incumbent Sam Brownback bested his Democratic challenger, Paul Davis, by a mere 33,000 votes out of nearly 850,000 cast. Now, compare that with the estimated effects of Kansas’s new restrictions on voting.

> We know that more than 21,000 people tried to register but failed because they lacked the necessary “documentary proof of citizenship” required by a new Kansas law. The state’s separate, strict voter ID law also had an effect: Applying findings from a recent Government Accountability Office report that examined how the voter ID law affected the state’s turnout in 2012, Weiser estimates that it probably reduced turnout this time around by about 17,000 votes.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2016/02/02/3745296/major-vo...

> For example, the researchers found that in primary elections, “a strict ID law could be expected to depress Latino turnout by 9.3 points, Black turnout by 8.6 points, and Asian American turnout by 12.5 points.”

-----

> 1) Hacking voting machines to a significant extent would require a team of people, not just one guy, which dramatically increases the risk of exposure.

I don't agree with Burkman on that. It'd be relatively easy to hack them with a couple guys in a swing state who drops devices at target locations. You can get a partnership with decent security to function in this regard.

http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/04/16/399986...

> When state auditors investigated, though, they didn't find that particular problem. Instead, they found something more disturbing. While using their smartphones, they were able to connect to the voting machines' wireless network, which is used to tally votes. > Other state investigators easily guessed the system's passwords — in one case, it was "abcde" — and were then able to change the vote counts remotely without detection.

> 2) The reported vote count is usually very close to the predicted vote count, and always very close to exit polling results. The hacked results would need to be very close to the real results, or be combined with control over a huge number of people in the polling industry.

This is a larger problem that can only be surmounted in 1-2 swing states in a given election. You can't push the needle more than a few basis points with these tricks or you'll get all sorts of accusations flying, recounts, Bush v. Gore, etc. etc.

Weird statistical outliers simply don't happen often enough at the precinct/county level and the shift in state results are the results of an aggregation of events in multiple precincts. So I highly suspect you could flip one or two precincts this way as well as shift the whole state a few basis points on top of that but if you swing more than 1-1.5% this way I'm pretty sure you'll fail due to recounts and other safeguards.

The target states for this would be the usual "swing states":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_ele... [ .88% ]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_ele... [ 2.98% ]

You aren't going to be able to pull this off in Ohio but you could in Florida. You'd also need to be able to predict which states you could swing this way and do so without triggering a recount.

So you push Florida to +.62% Romney and sabotage things when your opponent demands a recount. The risk of detection is really, really high. If detected swinging this one state, you lose the election due to being on trial for criminal conspiray, etc. etc.

Re: How to Hack an Election

#37
post #2

> He also splurged on the very best fake Twitter profiles; they’d been maintained for at least a year, giving them a patina of believability. > Sepúlveda managed thousands of such fake profiles and used the accounts to shape discussion around topics such as Peña Nieto’s plan to end drug violence, priming the social media pump with views that real users would mimic. For less nuanced work, he had a larger army of 30,00…

Propaganda takes time. Often the most effective stuff happens when you aren't even aware of it. You progress through your regular life and encounter regular things. People bitch on the internet about stupid stuff with the occasional decent argument, and nothing looks out of the ordinary. You see laughable arguments about politicians with hints of truth, or intrude, but maybe you ignore it. After a while you see more…

> Propaganda is not a tidal wave that comes crashing down on established opinions, it is a steady stream that eats at solid rock until it creates a deep gorge you could not have imagined structured in any other way.

Yes. However, they swing things in a single election cycle for marginal supporters of a candidate [which are the folks that really control the outcome in the US. The majority of the states are consistent.].

http://www.luc.edu/quinlan/stories/archive/why-attack-ads-wo...

> Roughly 14 percent of the students said the attack on their candidate made them support him even more, the researchers found. But an equal percentage of students said the advertisement weakened their support and caused them to move closer to the opponent—the one who ran the negative ad.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/science/columnist/vergan...

> •Just giving medical students pens with a drug's name on them made the students significantly more favorably disposed toward the medication than otherwise, despite their immersion in classes aimed at letting them rationally evaluate drug benefits, found a 2009 Archives of Internal Medicinereport.

> •Remember shaking hands with Bugs Bunny at Disneyland? Roughly a third of people presented with a fake ad depicting a visit to Disneyland that featured a handshake with Bugs later remembered or knew the meet up with the 'wascally wabbit' had happened to them, according to a 2001 University of Washington study. Even though Bugs is owned by Warner Brothers and verboten at a Disney facility, so it couldn't have happened.

Re: How to Hack an Election

#38
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like if you're able to poke at the idea in as much detail as you're providing that you might be able to draft your own. Have any ideas on how to do it? That said, appears like given your points that I agree a better use of the idea would be to insure an election and reduce costs too. Meaning run a real campaign, stay behind, but close enough to not draw attention, which I'm guessing would reduce costs more than…

None of my points have anything to do with cost, I'm (realistically) assuming a campaign with huge amounts of cash. The problem, as with most conspiracy theories, is the number of people that need to cooperate and stay silent, and the number of independent safeguards that already exist. Spending more money actually hurts you, because it makes it harder to hide where that money is going, especially with all of the cam…

> The problem, as with most conspiracy theories, is the number of people that need to cooperate and stay silent, and the number of independent safeguards that already exist.

It didn't seem like a problem for Diebold. The 2000 general election had a lot of awfully-convenient-for-Republicans scandals with their voting machines in place.

Re: How to Hack an Election

#39
post #4

This shouldn't be a surprise: I think most HN members know that it's possible; we know that the rewards (incredible power, status, and everything you can get with them includig the spoils of office) are worth the investment (only $600K for this solution!); we know that there are many people, including politicians, unsavory enough to do it. The question is, why do we pretend it's not happening until there's a smoking…

A few reasons I can think of: 1) Hacking voting machines to a significant extent would require a team of people, not just one guy, which dramatically increases the risk of exposure. 2) The reported vote count is usually very close to the predicted vote count, and always very close to exit polling results. The hacked results would need to be very close to the real results, or be combined with control over a huge numbe…

> Hacking voting machines to a significant extent would require a team of people, not just one guy, which dramatically increases the risk of exposure

As someone else points out, you don't need to hack the whole country, just some key locations. Also, you could hack the source; many firewalls from a major vendor had (have?) security holes because someone checked the necessary code into their revision control system. How secure is Diebold or whoever makes the machines?

> The reported vote count is usually very close to the predicted vote count

Suprise results, where the outcome doesn't match the polls, are not that rare. Recently Sanders' win in Michigan is an example. In the UK, in the last parliamentary election, I believe the conservatives did much better than polls predicted.

> always very close to exit polling results

If true, this is a useful check.

> hacking could not be used to create a very close result that could trigger a recount, or it would need to be combined with actual ballot theft

That assumes there are ballots to steal; many voting machines are electronic.

Re: How to Hack an Election

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few reasons I can think of: 1) Hacking voting machines to a significant extent would require a team of people, not just one guy, which dramatically increases the risk of exposure. 2) The reported vote count is usually very close to the predicted vote count, and always very close to exit polling results. The hacked results would need to be very close to the real results, or be combined with control over a huge numbe…

None of this squares with what I have previously been told about US elections. 1. I have seen video demonstrations wherein one person with opportunistic unsupervised access to a voting machine can hack it to affect every issue on the ballot within five minutes. Given the security at many polling places in the US, this easily extrapolates to one person able to hack all machines at a given polling place prior to electi…

1. There are over 100,000 polling places in the US. You would probably need to affect at least 1000 of them to have a noticeable impact. It's true that only a few polling places could decide an election, but you can't know this in advance. It would be absurd to hack a few "in case we need it". That's a massive risk for probably no gain.

Individual polling place results are always reported, so just modifying the total count would not work.

2. This is a good point, but again, look at Florida. It was very seriously considered, and is still seriously considered by some people, that real widespread vote fraud occurred.

It's an interesting effect though, and I agree that widespread subtle adjustments might not be caught by looking at polls.

3. Yes, all of this would be much easier if voting was totally electronic. In the US, the vast majority of voting is done with paper ballots that are read by a machine. I think at least 3/4 of votes use paper ballot.

4. Yes, I agree, you wouldn't need to hack the whole country. But on the other hand, battleground counties are also ones the media and the public is paying the most attention to.

I don't think your example is realistic. I find it very difficult to believe that nobody would notice the individual district counts don't add up to the total count in a county. Or maybe that's not quite what you meant, but regardless, the system is not that automated. There are people at every stage of the process who would need to notice that what they're reporting is not what's going through.

Post reply on HN