Lotteries: America's $70B Shame • Hacker News Board

Re: Lotteries: America's $70B Shame

#31

Post by savanaly » Mon, Mar 28, 2016, 5:09 PM UTC

>According to the North American Association of State and Provincial Lotteries, lotteries took in $70.1 billion in sales in the 2014 fiscal year. That’s more than Americans in all 50 states spent on sports tickets, books, video games, movie tickets, and recorded music sales.

One should be careful when making this sort of comparison-- at least from the standpoint of the overall economy. The cost of "producing the lottery" is more or less fixed relative to its revenue, i.e. its marginal cost is free, but it's not necessarily free for the other good they're comparing it to. For consumers to increase the number of movie tickets they buy or books they buy, more theaters have to be built or books have to be printed. The cost of producing the extra consumption goods is relevant, precisely because there is nearly zero cost of producing the consumer good that is a lotto ticket.

In other words, money is changing hands (mainly from the poor people's hands into the government's and from there who knows), but resources are not being consumed like they would be if we were constructing new movie theaters all over town. That particular aspect of the lottery is actually praiseworthy and might be missed by a simple comparison of consumer spending on it vs "all these other forms of entertainment combined".

Re: Lotteries: America's $70B Shame

#32

Post by rm_-rf_slash » Mon, Mar 28, 2016, 5:10 PM UTC

Eric_WVGG wrote: post #29

exolymph wrote: post #15

This issue boils down to the proper function of government: ensure people's freedom to act as they wish (barring negative impact on others), or enforce the "healthiest" behavior? Yes, buying lottery tickets for any reason other than entertainment is irrational. But does that mean it shouldn't be allowed? People are choosing to spend their money like this. Personally, I prefer a government that lets people do stupid t…

except that I’m not sure that the counter-argument to "act-as-you-wish" is "enforcing healthy behavior." The nail in the coffin of the tobacco industry wasn’t “cigarettes are unhealthy,” it was that the tobacco industry was actively deceiving the public and obfuscating scientific research over multiple generations. (When the sugar industry follows step (this seems inevitable), it will because they failed to police th…

There's a reason the New York State lottery motto is "Hey, you never know."

You could enforce monthly purchase limits based on income, you could require an accurate demonstration of statistics on every ticket, you could raise taxes and double ticket prices, all sorts of things that would get the primary market - people who buy tickets and really can't afford it - to buy less, but...

Hey, you never know.

Re: Lotteries: America's $70B Shame

#33

Post by zeveb » Mon, Mar 28, 2016, 5:10 PM UTC

wrong_variable wrote: post #17

exolymph wrote: post #15

This issue boils down to the proper function of government: ensure people's freedom to act as they wish (barring negative impact on others), or enforce the "healthiest" behavior? Yes, buying lottery tickets for any reason other than entertainment is irrational. But does that mean it shouldn't be allowed? People are choosing to spend their money like this. Personally, I prefer a government that lets people do stupid t…

> "Personally, I prefer a government that lets people do stupid things" What an ignorant statement to make. Are you okay with people making "stupid decisions" like smoking in public places ? Are you okay with people making "stupid decisions" like driving drunk ? Are you okay with people making "stupid decisions" like shooting up a school ? Society works when we look out for each other - and not let people do whatever…

> Are you okay with people making "stupid decisions" like smoking in public places?

Yes, because mature adults recognise that smoking in public places is no more offensive than poor bathing hygiene, and less harmful than woodsmoke.

> Society works when we look out for each other - and not let people do whatever they think is "right".

What is right? The majority? That's just a synonym for might.

Re: Lotteries: America's $70B Shame

#34

Post by VLM » Mon, Mar 28, 2016, 5:10 PM UTC

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #18

"When you play the lottery, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. But it's better than using drugs or alcohol because when you use drugs or alcohol, you always lose" - "American Movie" People who don't play the lottery are always so quick to dismiss it. They disregard how accessible it is - you don't need a next-gen console or flat-screen tv, just cash - as they disregard how independently fun it is - you could b…

Speaking of drugs, and registry, one big problem would be its an extremely expensive small time form of money laundering.

The way to destroy money laundering would be to eliminate small returns of $2 on a $1 ticket (at maybe 5% odds).

The lottery is a very expensive way to get clean traceable money, but often enough not much clean traceable money is required.

Re: Lotteries: America's $70B Shame

#35

Post by wrong_variable » Mon, Mar 28, 2016, 5:10 PM UTC

crazy1van wrote: post #23

wrong_variable wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Personally, I prefer a government that lets people do stupid things" What an ignorant statement to make. Are you okay with people making "stupid decisions" like smoking in public places ? Are you okay with people making "stupid decisions" like driving drunk ? Are you okay with people making "stupid decisions" like shooting up a school ? Society works when we look out for each other - and not let people do whatever…

I think his caveat of "barring negative impact on others" pretty much covers these cases.

> "barring negative impact on others"

You think taking what little money poor people have from them via allowing them to spend it on lottery does not have social consequences ?

Re: Lotteries: America's $70B Shame

#36

Post by MichaelBurge » Mon, Mar 28, 2016, 5:11 PM UTC

The poor do a lot of dumb things: They don't track their money, they rack up credit card debt, they don't plan to minimize taxes, they depend on payday loans and check cashing services, they drink and smoke and do drugs, they constantly overdraft their bank accounts, they spend too much on entertainment, etc. The middle class are better with this, mainly because they have more money and so are less likely to be fined for non-payment.

I know some family approaching 60 who are still paying off the house, 2 cars, and an RV. If that wasn't bad enough, they play the lottery every week because "somebody has to win".

I still think we should abolish social security, but after seeing countless examples of people racking up debt buying stuff they don't need and then depending on it in old age to avoid starving, it's almost enough to make me think it has some merit.

I feel like that entire line of thought with government-enforced retirement accounts leads to increasing taxes on the poor since they can't be trusted to responsibly spend it. Which actually might be what a lottery is.

Re: Lotteries: America's $70B Shame

#37

Post by nostrebored » Mon, Mar 28, 2016, 5:12 PM UTC

calebm wrote: post #21

exolymph wrote: post #15

This issue boils down to the proper function of government: ensure people's freedom to act as they wish (barring negative impact on others), or enforce the "healthiest" behavior? Yes, buying lottery tickets for any reason other than entertainment is irrational. But does that mean it shouldn't be allowed? People are choosing to spend their money like this. Personally, I prefer a government that lets people do stupid t…

Exactly what I came to say. I'm not a gambler, but the idea of making gambling illegal seems insane to me in "the land of the free".

Spend some more time around casinos. Watch your opinion change as you realize what depressing things it says about our society that we let people weep on the pavement because they've lost their house on a literal crapshoot.

Spending a good bit of my formative years in Biloxi seriously changed my attitude around all of this.

Re: Lotteries: America's $70B Shame

#38

Post by sremani » Mon, Mar 28, 2016, 5:12 PM UTC

For me lotteries is one of the reason, I have grown skeptical of State.

1. They Lie, Lie about funding schools and lottery is the only way to do it.

2. Lie about the Prize money, the advertisements of lottery are untruthful and a private entity would be charged with fraud.

3. The practice of gaming the game, i.e. they try to make lotteries popular and sink a lot of money for advertising, they claim 50% goes for prizes but of the remaining 50% a lot goes to advertising than going to schools.

4. Taxing the winning, splitting the wins. Even if you win, you will be short-charged depending on the number of winners.

5. Exclude non-State entities from having their own lotteries, State monopoly.

6. Corporate tax cuts are pretty much common in states that aggressively promote lottery, lotto and video poker.

Even if it is entertainment, which it is not, Government should not be in it. I am not against lotteries, they need to competitive and have should have a level transparency, that is currently lacking since the law makers are the law breakers.

Re: Lotteries: America's $70B Shame

#39

Post by nmrm2 » Mon, Mar 28, 2016, 5:13 PM UTC

cauterized wrote: post #28

nmrm2 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. This basically never happens. 2. Don't compare to letting the money sit under a matress. Insteaad, compare with other investments. Buying a lottery ticket doesn't make sense when measured purely in terms of profit, even when the expected profit is non-negative.

Then neither does buying a movie ticket make sense. Of course it doesn't make sense if you frame it as an investment. But people don't necessarily buy lottery tickets expecting to win and more than you or I sit down at a slot machine expecting to walk away with more money than we arrived with. They buy them as entertainment or a reason to hope or dream for a few days.

walshemj's comment was clearly referring to cases where the expected profit of a lottery ticket is positive ("pot odds are such it does make sense to bet on the lottery"). I'm working from walshemj's assumptions about how risk and benefit should be measured, which is in terms of monetary value.

Re: Lotteries: America's $70B Shame

#40

Post by rm_-rf_slash » Mon, Mar 28, 2016, 5:13 PM UTC

savanaly wrote: post #31

>According to the North American Association of State and Provincial Lotteries, lotteries took in $70.1 billion in sales in the 2014 fiscal year. That’s more than Americans in all 50 states spent on sports tickets, books, video games, movie tickets, and recorded music sales. One should be careful when making this sort of comparison-- at least from the standpoint of the overall economy. The cost of "producing the lott…

As I said elsewhere, it takes nothing more than a printer with ink and paper. No terminals, no coin-collectors, nothing else. We shouldn't antagonize a ruthlessly efficient method of revenue because people make bad decisions.

Whether it's killing a man or providing jobs to miners, the dynamite doesn't care.