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Do We Still Need Prisons?

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Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#31

Post by noir_lord »

chillingeffect wrote: post #8

Spoken like a truly out of touch academic. Here's an incident that took place last week in a town near me: A man with a beer and a condom approached a random couple on the sidewalk and declared his intention to have sex with the woman. When she declined, two of his brothers and a fourth man appeared from behind a bush, beat the man into submission and dragged the woman back to their apartment. They barricaded the doo…

Not sure why you got downvoted, I'm pretty left wing but people who pull the kind of shit in that story really do belong in prison, it doesn't have to be a harsh american-style prison but it has to be secure, some people just shouldn't be in society because of the threat they pose to the rights of others.

It's not just about punishment it's about protecting law-abiding members of society.

Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#32

Post by vijayr »

digitalengineer wrote: post #14

Before Napoleon there was such a thing as "restorative justice": "Restorative justice is an approach to justice that focuses on the needs of the victims and the offenders, as well as the involved community. This contrasts to more punitive approaches where the main aim is to punish the offender, or satisfy abstract legal principles. Victims take an active role in the process. Meanwhile, offenders are encouraged to tak…

How will this work in today's society? Judges give the harshest sentences in election years compared to other times because they want to look "tough on crime". Some of the most asinine laws stem from politicians who also want to look tough on crime. As a society, we treat people who've been to prison like crap and our movies make prison rape jokes, as if it is something to be joked about. It is just depressing.

Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#33

Post by philipov »

mc32 wrote: post #26
onion2k wrote: post #12

There's a very interesting thought experiment devised by the human rights lawyer Clive Stafford Smitg and outlined at the end of the excellent book "So You've Been Publicly Shamed" by Jon Ronson. Quoting from the book; “Let me ask you three questions,” he said. “And then you’ll see it my way. Question One: What’s the worst thing that you have ever done to someone? It’s okay. You don’t have to confess it out loud. Que…

I don't think this kind of reductive thinking, if taken into more political and behavioral extreme areas works. Lets try this mental exercise, what is the physical damage to me if I get raped? In extreme cases one could get infected with a potentially deadly STD, or if a woman, onr may become pregnant, but in many cases at the physical level, it's not all that different from regular sex between people. The main diffe…

The error in thinking here is your equivocation of the emotional trauma of having your groceries stolen with being raped. Your conclusion is extreme, but it is not a logical conclusion.

Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#34

Post by aninhumer »

cousin_it wrote: post #25
onion2k wrote: post #12

There's a very interesting thought experiment devised by the human rights lawyer Clive Stafford Smitg and outlined at the end of the excellent book "So You've Been Publicly Shamed" by Jon Ronson. Quoting from the book; “Let me ask you three questions,” he said. “And then you’ll see it my way. Question One: What’s the worst thing that you have ever done to someone? It’s okay. You don’t have to confess it out loud. Que…

> Should we really be putting someone in prison for burglary when there are people who rip millions of people off with legal price gouging or break up a family by cheating? I agree that cheating usually hurts more than burglary. However, it's not just a question of how harmful it is, but also how many people feel the urge to do it. We can mostly deal with burglary by criminalizing it, but criminalizing cheating would…

Depending on what exactly criminalisation means, I wonder if it wouldn't lead to far more openness about polyamory.

Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#35

Post by bambax »

nickff wrote: post #19
onion2k wrote: post #12

There's a very interesting thought experiment devised by the human rights lawyer Clive Stafford Smitg and outlined at the end of the excellent book "So You've Been Publicly Shamed" by Jon Ronson. Quoting from the book; “Let me ask you three questions,” he said. “And then you’ll see it my way. Question One: What’s the worst thing that you have ever done to someone? It’s okay. You don’t have to confess it out loud. Que…

You should at least be comparing expected outcomes (if not worst possible outcomes) rather than actual outcomes. Especially because your thought experiment is subject to extreme (literal) survivorship bias; no murder victim will answer your hypothetical. Other crimes such as carjacking, which has a 50% death rate for the victim, should be punished very severely even if the victim survived. In addition, in cases where…

I think the point of the parent is not that we should punish more, it's that we should punish less: since we don't punish grave misbehaviors that have dire consequences but are technically not illegal, why punish shoplifting?

Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#36

Post by chillingeffect »

bostonfriend wrote: post #13
chillingeffect wrote: post #8

Spoken like a truly out of touch academic. Here's an incident that took place last week in a town near me: A man with a beer and a condom approached a random couple on the sidewalk and declared his intention to have sex with the woman. When she declined, two of his brothers and a fourth man appeared from behind a bush, beat the man into submission and dragged the woman back to their apartment. They barricaded the doo…

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/local_coverage/2016/03/ille...

Yes, that's the one. I actually had a nightmare about it happening to my friend and I two nights ago.

p.s. Thank you for making a whole new account just to post that ;)

Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#37

Post by nickff »

bambax wrote: post #35
nickff wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should at least be comparing expected outcomes (if not worst possible outcomes) rather than actual outcomes. Especially because your thought experiment is subject to extreme (literal) survivorship bias; no murder victim will answer your hypothetical. Other crimes such as carjacking, which has a 50% death rate for the victim, should be punished very severely even if the victim survived. In addition, in cases where…

I think the point of the parent is not that we should punish more, it's that we should punish less: since we don't punish grave misbehaviors that have dire consequences but are technically not illegal, why punish shoplifting?

I do not address the question of what (absolute level of) punishment (if any) would be appropriate for any level of harm; I am offering a set of criticisms of the standard (, how harm could be measured and compared).

Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#38

Post by bye_amzn »

noir_lord wrote: post #31
chillingeffect wrote: post #8

Spoken like a truly out of touch academic. Here's an incident that took place last week in a town near me: A man with a beer and a condom approached a random couple on the sidewalk and declared his intention to have sex with the woman. When she declined, two of his brothers and a fourth man appeared from behind a bush, beat the man into submission and dragged the woman back to their apartment. They barricaded the doo…

Not sure why you got downvoted, I'm pretty left wing but people who pull the kind of shit in that story really do belong in prison, it doesn't have to be a harsh american-style prison but it has to be secure, some people just shouldn't be in society because of the threat they pose to the rights of others. It's not just about punishment it's about protecting law-abiding members of society.

> Not sure why you got downvoted

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion

Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#39

Post by gozur88 »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #16
onion2k wrote: post #12

There's a very interesting thought experiment devised by the human rights lawyer Clive Stafford Smitg and outlined at the end of the excellent book "So You've Been Publicly Shamed" by Jon Ronson. Quoting from the book; “Let me ask you three questions,” he said. “And then you’ll see it my way. Question One: What’s the worst thing that you have ever done to someone? It’s okay. You don’t have to confess it out loud. Que…

Can't ignore in all that, the issue of public order. Going soft on bullies (which is what many smash-and-grab criminals may be) means it grows without limit. So establishing public order is not an optional thing.

I agree with this. You only need to see what happens when public order breaks down during riots and natural disasters. There are a hell of a lot of people out there who go wild when they don't anticipate punishment.

Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#40

Post by aninhumer »

DanBC wrote: post #28
DougN7 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you say it clearly doesn't? Sure it doesn't deter ALL but none?

Have you ever chosen not to do something because you want to avoid prison? Or is there other stuff that's stopping you from breaking laws?

Of course, most people are socialised not to even consider breaking most laws, but that only happens because they live in a lawful society. When you see people around you breaking the rules, you feel much less obliged to keep them.
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