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Jobs Involving Routine Tasks Aren't Growing

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Re: Jobs Involving Routine Tasks Aren't Growing

#31
post #11
post #2

What's wrong with that? This is called "progress".

Progress implies moving toward a goal. What goal are we moving toward? Our society and economy aren't optimized for scenarios involving large scale unemployment. What use is automation if it only leads to mass human suffering?

> Progress implies moving toward a goal. What goal are we moving toward?

The goal seems to be making the rich even richer.

You are right in that the goal is key, because much time and effort will be spent towards the goal. When Kennedy said we should go to the moon, we did. Our leaders today have other goals, and they too will reach their goals. Choose wisely.

Re: Jobs Involving Routine Tasks Aren't Growing

#32
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I touch type ("ten finger system") but I can see a point to the argument that it's not necessary to program well. Typing is only a small part of programming, and touch typing isn't a huge benefit even for that part, considering all the numbers and symbols used, auto-complete for identifiers and keywords, and macros for common idioms. And it painfully overworks the right pinky.

I see your point. Typing is not the main part of programming, so just typing faster than your colleague doesn't make you feel that much more powerful. Let me give you another example that maybe drives the point home better: Have you seen the videos of how Minecraft was made? A very short amount of time was spent on getting the I/O to the filesystem to work, of setting up a window and filling it with colors, of creati…

> Let me give you another example that maybe drives the point home better: Have you seen the videos of how Minecraft was made? A very short amount of time was spent on getting the I/O to the filesystem to work, of setting up a window and filling it with colors, of creating the basic 3D world. I believe that is a huge part why not everybody can write a successful game as Minecraft. Because I don't have trained the routines, I need to spend a considerable amount of time getting all these basic things done before I can start with an actual 3D game. Thus an experienced game developer is already done with his first demo in the time I am done with the basics. And at this point he has a demo to show for, I have nothing. So he even gains more motivation in the same time to continue, and he may even gain some first user feedback. This will make him code longer (huge benefit, I give up at this point) and he will also develop more in the direction that is fun for players (huge benefit two).

I think Minecraft's success is mostly luck and doesn't really prove anything. A lot of very experienced game developers write games that fail, all the time.

You're right that as a programmer, when you start working on something you're not yet familiar with then there will be a period in which things that are routine and automated for someone experienced in that area are not yet routine for you and you haven't yet automated them. I just don't see that as particularly important. You learn how to do these things, then you automate them, and you've only needed a small one-off extra effort compared to the experienced programmer doing the same thing. 80% or more of the work of writing a program isn't solving business problems directly, it's writing the tools that make it straightforward to do the actual business problem solving. Most of the skill of doing this is transferable, and learning 10-20 languages really doesn't involve that much overhead.

Re: Jobs Involving Routine Tasks Aren't Growing

#33
post #11
post #2

What's wrong with that? This is called "progress".

Progress implies moving toward a goal. What goal are we moving toward? Our society and economy aren't optimized for scenarios involving large scale unemployment. What use is automation if it only leads to mass human suffering?

for the vast majority employment is mass human suffering

Re: Jobs Involving Routine Tasks Aren't Growing

#34
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Progress implies moving toward a goal. What goal are we moving toward? Our society and economy aren't optimized for scenarios involving large scale unemployment. What use is automation if it only leads to mass human suffering?

> Progress implies moving toward a goal. What goal are we moving toward? The goal seems to be making the rich even richer. You are right in that the goal is key, because much time and effort will be spent towards the goal. When Kennedy said we should go to the moon, we did. Our leaders today have other goals, and they too will reach their goals. Choose wisely.

Quite right. Almost everyone is quite rich in terms of available goods and services per median income, compared to 100 years ago. Even by 50 years old standards, I am super-rich, having the ability to travel though Europe many times per year, flexible working schedule, and having, say, an on-demand driver available on call by the push of the button on my portable phone... this is insanely rich even by original Wall Street movie standards! And I am not a Wall Street trader, I am just a self-educated software engineer, coming from relatively poor family. My wife is a mathematician, also enjoying similar privileges.

So yes, I am looking forward to get even more richer in time. Like most of people. And this is way easier than it ever was before.

Re: Jobs Involving Routine Tasks Aren't Growing

#35
post #11
post #2

What's wrong with that? This is called "progress".

Progress implies moving toward a goal. What goal are we moving toward? Our society and economy aren't optimized for scenarios involving large scale unemployment. What use is automation if it only leads to mass human suffering?

Luddites were saying the same around 200 years ago, but it turned out better than expected. Lots of new jobs were created, replacing manual labor.

Re: Jobs Involving Routine Tasks Aren't Growing

#36
post #16
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone's time is worth the same. Some people have more experience, intelligence, or can simply brute-force the task with determination. Productive societies reward people as such, and for good reason. You're talking about obliterating incentives as we know them. Perhaps you can test your hypotheses in a voluntary society before advocating for a coercive state to enact such policies.

It's easy to account for this in terms of education. Number of years of education should be added into the calculation for that. For instance for every year of schooling you get a a certain percentage more currency in terms of hours worked than someone with less schooling. And I am for all sorts of pilot programs to explore how else we can organize society. As for "productive societies", I don't know what that will a…

Go back to communism. My country tried that and ended really bad. People will work of their own gain only. Capitalism is greed of individuals, it is also only reason why people make progress.

You are disconnected from real life. People like you with these ideas are dangerous.

Re: Jobs Involving Routine Tasks Aren't Growing

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And it painfully overworks the right pinky. Wut? I've been touch typing for years, and none of my fingers have experienced any strain, or ever been overworked. In fact, the reason I learned how to touch type was to _reduce_ the strain on all my fingers.

Perhaps it depends on what you're typing. The right pinky is used for the most common symbols, and for the ENTER key. It's really bad in C/C++, with {} and [] and ; and = and _ everywhere. Or maybe it's just different between individuals.

If you use some symbols very often it makes sense to put them somewhere more accessible. For me { is Alt+j and } is Alt+k, [ and ] are a row above. Creating a custom keyboard layout is very simple.

Re: Jobs Involving Routine Tasks Aren't Growing

#38
post #28
post #7

Oh well, please let us not connect softwaredevelopment and management too much with non-routine work. On a daily basis I see so many people who work on less than 50% of their capabilities because they haven't created routines in their work, thinking that their work is 90% non-routine. Think about the last time you heard how a developer tells you that you don't need to learn the ten finger system to program well, or t…

Programming in the internet age is 1% intellectual and 99% plumbing.

And this is great. It means that 99% of the programming jobs will fall to automation in the next few years. A cleansing long overdue.

Re: Jobs Involving Routine Tasks Aren't Growing

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And it painfully overworks the right pinky. Wut? I've been touch typing for years, and none of my fingers have experienced any strain, or ever been overworked. In fact, the reason I learned how to touch type was to _reduce_ the strain on all my fingers.

Perhaps it depends on what you're typing. The right pinky is used for the most common symbols, and for the ENTER key. It's really bad in C/C++, with {} and [] and ; and = and _ everywhere. Or maybe it's just different between individuals.

I use my ring finger for those keys. It's much easier.

Re: Jobs Involving Routine Tasks Aren't Growing

#40
post #38
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programming in the internet age is 1% intellectual and 99% plumbing.

And this is great. It means that 99% of the programming jobs will fall to automation in the next few years. A cleansing long overdue.

Nah, we keep changing the plumbing specs and rewriting the same basic applications over and over again.
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