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On asking job candidates to code

philcalcado.com

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Re: On asking job candidates to code

#31

Post by PedroCandeias »

Tunabrain wrote: post #9

> As brain-dead as I was after eight hours at my project, [..] Is giving out an 8+ hour programming project as part of the application process really considered good hiring practice? If you apply to five jobs, you're expected to spend an entire unpaid work week writing code that doesn't benefit anyone? If a company receives 20 applicants, their ideal candidate selection wastes a collective work month? I don't really…

I'm helping hire developers here at HelloFresh and I thought of this a lot.

A surprising amount of people don't maintain a very impressive public profile (me included, tbh). These people need the opportunity to showcase their skills and the only way to do so is by spending some time coding a nice solution.

We try to minimize the candidate's overhead by providing general guidance in the challenges we issue (like "please demonstrate the SOLID principles").

Then we do a code review on the solution, in which we also spend some time. We point out issues, suggest possible improvements and give props on stuff we consider well done. At the end, if the candidate doesn't progress they at least learned something useful. We hope that this way our recruitment process might always be worth the time.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#32

Post by vblord »

When we hire, after a few phone interviews we give the programmer an in person coding exercise that is very basic. Open a file and parse data, etc... They can use the internet. It's very basic. 80% of the candidates cannot do that. I'm not exaggerating. Maybe I'm missing something here, but it's pretty astonishing to me.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#33

Post by lordCarbonFiber »

forgetsusername wrote: post #20
CaRDiaK wrote: post #14

Not writing code for a potential employer or being asked to in an interview is a warning flag to me personally. I feel better if they do, as they've seen the goods to influence their decision on the hire. It's more about "How does this person think, how do they approach the problem". How can you measure that unless you're there? I see a lot of "I shouldn't have to do that". Well yeah, ok. But if you're any good, you…

> as they've seen the goods to influence their decision on the hire Or, they haven't. Which is why articles debating interview coding policies show up on HN almost every day. There is no "one" way. > But if you're any good And yet it's also well known that companies just can't get the engineering talent they require. Where is the discrepancy occurring?

As an aside, I can't find any data to support your second point. There seems to be a great deal of talk how companies can't find the engineering talent for bargain bin prices, this is why the H1B visas are so popular.

The biggest issue on this site, imo, is that we can't take our heads out of our asses and admit that the vast majority of programming positions are brain dead easy. You don't need a rigorous test to vet the developer you're hiring to make what is essentially a CRUD app (and your product probably fits that description). It's to the point where companies with deep pockets (think finance) don't even bother hiring solely CS students anymore. You can take any reasonable motivated graduate, put them in training for 2 months and pop out a budding developer for your tech pipeline. One two punch of competent tech worker, and company loyalty all in a super cheap package.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#34

Post by neverminder »

kasey_junk wrote: post #15
Tunabrain wrote: post #9

> As brain-dead as I was after eight hours at my project, [..] Is giving out an 8+ hour programming project as part of the application process really considered good hiring practice? If you apply to five jobs, you're expected to spend an entire unpaid work week writing code that doesn't benefit anyone? If a company receives 20 applicants, their ideal candidate selection wastes a collective work month? I don't really…

> Is giving out an 8+ hour programming project as part of the application process really considered good hiring practice? I'd say 8 hours is too long. I always strive for a 4 hours, but I've seen that 4 hours chop 16 hours off of the candidates time and more than 32 off of the companies. > What's the point of maintaining an online portfolio and a github profile full of code The vast, vast, vast majority of candidates…

I was one of this vast majority once, so I know how it feels. Eventually though however slowly, but I've gathered enough code samples on my github account, samples that are actually rather unique and at the same time useful and getting starred. It takes time, polishing, sure, but as a result quite a few companies stopped asking me doing coding tasks, so I'd say in the end it's worth it.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#35

Post by VLM »

Tunabrain wrote: post #9

> As brain-dead as I was after eight hours at my project, [..] Is giving out an 8+ hour programming project as part of the application process really considered good hiring practice? If you apply to five jobs, you're expected to spend an entire unpaid work week writing code that doesn't benefit anyone? If a company receives 20 applicants, their ideal candidate selection wastes a collective work month? I don't really…

Its like asking why frat pledges are paddled when the muscular workout the paddlers get is inferior to the workout they'd get at the gym.

Its just hazing. Same mentality as giving them wedgies or shoving them in a locker.

classic movie quote: "Thank You Sir May I have Another?"

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#36

Post by th0br0 »

kasey_junk wrote: post #12
tptacek wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's such a false economy. It's harder the first time. By the third or fourth time, it's free. And that's before you count the expense of making super dumb hiring decisions, which is what happens when you use virtually any other process.

How long did it take you to get scripted interviews implemented at Monsanto? How long to actually figure out what the scripts should say? Did your data indicate that the interviews were valuable & if not, how long did it take you to get interviews removed from the hiring process? How much of your time did you devote to building work sample tests or work sample sales funnel devices (microcorruption)? This is at an org…

s/Monsanto/Matasano/

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#37

Post by eli »

MiddleEndian wrote: post #22
CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is: Writing good resumes and having a lot of experience with programming is a good heuristic for "experience" and "knows how to play the game" but not meaningfully useful for "excellent at programming". Work-sample tests measure the latter. A worker's experience is a heuristic for programming skill, but a heuristic of a heuristic is like an average of a set of averages: Useless.

Just to play devil's advocate, being excellent at programming is also only a heuristic for working as a professional programmer.

Very true! I find it disappointing that many candidates appear to put little effort in their cover letter. It's a chance to show me you can communicate well, which is maybe the single most important skill in working on a team.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#38

Post by _ak »

CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #11
orng wrote: post #4

I really hate having to solve these kind of programming challenges. I've already sent you my CV, with references from former/current employers and co-workers. Call them up if you are worried that I'm lying on my résumé, don't waste my time by making me work for the chance of maybe getting a job as only payment. Doing multiple interviews already takes up enough of my time, seeing as I'm the one who has to commute to y…

The problem is: Writing good resumes and having a lot of experience with programming is a good heuristic for "experience" and "knows how to play the game" but not meaningfully useful for "excellent at programming". Work-sample tests measure the latter. A worker's experience is a heuristic for programming skill, but a heuristic of a heuristic is like an average of a set of averages: Useless.

That's what probation periods are for. Use them.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#39

Post by CiPHPerCoder »

MiddleEndian wrote: post #22
CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is: Writing good resumes and having a lot of experience with programming is a good heuristic for "experience" and "knows how to play the game" but not meaningfully useful for "excellent at programming". Work-sample tests measure the latter. A worker's experience is a heuristic for programming skill, but a heuristic of a heuristic is like an average of a set of averages: Useless.

Just to play devil's advocate, being excellent at programming is also only a heuristic for working as a professional programmer.

Sure, but it's O(n) rather than O(n^2).

Hiring decisions are hard to generalize, because different companies have different needs at different times.

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