SCMP's online presence in mainland China completely wiped out • Hacker News Board

Re: SCMP's online presence in mainland China completely wiped out

#31

Post by rm_-rf_slash » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 8:56 PM UTC

MrMullen wrote: post #29

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We in the West have the privilege of using our culture of free expression and open communication to create marvels like pizza and burgers, and then oversell these marvels to the Chinese as brands that can never be 100% replicated, like Pizza Hut and McDonald's. China will never be cool. Powerful, but not sexy. Keep being original and interesting, and you will be a part of the winning team.

As the saying goes; "China has Pandas, China has kung-foo, but America invented Kung-foo Panda. That would never happen in China."

Bingo.

Being cool means being able to say "fuck 'the man'"

China's history is to be "the man" at any cost.

The Chinese government will never allow homegrown "cool" for fear it undermines their authority or create culture by decree.

Re: SCMP's online presence in mainland China completely wiped out

#32

Post by duncan_bayne » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 9:11 PM UTC

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #10

jorgecurio wrote: post #8

Who in their right minds would want China to be the global hegemony when they censor free speech, treat people like they are disposable (Falun Gong body organ harvesting by President Zemin), impose Han Chinese ethnocentric ideologies as superior to the world as did Nazi Germany believed their blood made them pure? What country in their right mind that enjoys the security and economic prosperity and trade with other d…

We in the West have the privilege of using our culture of free expression and open communication to create marvels like pizza and burgers, and then oversell these marvels to the Chinese as brands that can never be 100% replicated, like Pizza Hut and McDonald's. China will never be cool. Powerful, but not sexy. Keep being original and interesting, and you will be a part of the winning team.

Paul Graham gave the example of members of the Manhattan Project having lock-picking and safe-cracking as hobbies; that almost certainly wouldn't have been a thing on the NAZI side, and nicely illustrates the difference between the two.

Re: SCMP's online presence in mainland China completely wiped out

#33

Post by lordCarbonFiber » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 9:19 PM UTC

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #30

0xffff2 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that worked in the 18th century, but how high would the tariffs have to be to make it economically feasible to manufacture an iPhone in the US? How much would that iPhone cost? I wouldn't be surprised if the answer put iPhones beyond the reach of the vast majority of Americans. I don't doubt that new wide-ranging tariffs would increase American manufacturing (although we still make a lot of stuff in the US as it…

We don't have to manufacture everything here. It makes sense to do microelectronics in China because of factory network effects. Need a widget? My buddy at the factory down the road can ship you a million by Friday. But we can manufacture textiles, plastics, metals, and so much more that we grow, extract, and refine here. The only reason China is so competitive is because of ridiculous energy subsidies and an artific…

Just on the off chance you're not just trolling and actually believe what you're saying about tariffs. There's a strong reason why the only people arguing for them are populist candidates without any economical backing. I'd suggesting reading on the history, and effects of the Smoot Hawley Tariff in the 1930s.

The general accepted wisdom is you don't want your economy regressing back to being built on low skill manufacturing jobs. Nor do you want your trading partners to inact retaliatory tariffs. Im sure the Americans buying the 10 dollar shirts will tend to be more upset at price increase. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot%E2%80%93Hawley_Tariff_Ac...

Re: SCMP's online presence in mainland China completely wiped out

#34

Post by benologist » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 9:20 PM UTC

FussyZeus wrote: post #2

I wonder if China can fully enter the first world while still executing such a thorough and complete control over the media? Would anyone like to weigh in on if free speech is essential to what you'd consider a first world country, or is it simply one of those luxuries that only some need?

The EU gave Turkey an extra €3bn the same week their police - seized - a newspaper for criticizing the government.

All is well again under the editor the government put in place.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/06/seized-turkish-...

Re: SCMP's online presence in mainland China completely wiped out

#35

Post by zghst » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 9:39 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #23

The South China Morning Post has had the best English-language reporting on China for years. Both inside and outside China, that was what one read to get some idea of what was really going on. For comparison, read Xinhua.[1] Today's top story: "President Xi calls for structural reform, agricultural modernization". Story #2: "Premier Li urges Guangdong to pioneer reform". Story #3: "Top legislator delivers report on w…

SCMP was already going down the tubes in regards to journalistic integrity. I stopped reading more than a year ago due to the propaganda pieces they were shipping.

Re: SCMP's online presence in mainland China completely wiped out

#36

Post by Jtsummers » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 9:51 PM UTC

analyst74 wrote: post #21

nitrogen wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that simply expressing astonishment will change anyone's mind. Are these well-known ideas or something completely new? Can you refute them directly or explain where they come from to someone not familiar with Chinese history and current conspiracy theories?

One does not need familiarity with Chinese history or conspiracy theories to put those claims into the nonsense bin. But in case it's not as obvious as I see it, here are my assumptions: - president of China is a public figure - he is probably not crazy - most Chinese people are not crazy - not-crazy people think organ harvesting is really bad Based on those assumptions (feel free to prove me wrong), he is unlikely t…

Organ harvesting from prisoners is apparently legal in China (per the Wikipedia article, haven't followed through all the links yet). So apparently some not-crazy people think it's not really bad or crazy people are running the show. Let's assume not-crazy. They have a source of organs, people they intend to execute, and they apparently make use of this. There's a lack (or circa 2006 was) of a detailed registry showing the source of transplant organs. There's some evidence (but not conclusive) that some of those organs were from Falun Gong members.

So China is harvesting organs from prisoners. They have not maintained an accountable record of which prisoners were used that could be offered as verification. Torture and coercion of Falun Gong prisoners does happen. In an environment of poor accountability and oversight with a willingness for brutality, the potential abuse cannot be immediately discarded.

If you think I'm just bashing China, see the US and its various torture abuses over the past 15 (in particular) years. Abu Ghraib is not something that most people would have expected from the US Army, but it happened.

Bush was a public figure. Bush was probably not crazy. Most US people are not crazy. Not-crazy people think that dehumanizing and torture of prisoners is really bad. But it happened.

This is a different scale (thousands, not hundreds) and different issue (killing and harvesting, not torture) but your assumptions are insufficient to discard it out of hand. They do, however, provide a solid basis for skepticism.

But had the Chinese officials and agencies involved done their due diligence they should have had records demonstrating the source of organs. If for no other reason than the medical knowledge for recipients. A closed examination or audit of those records would have sufficed to put this case to rest (for the vast majority of people).

Re: SCMP's online presence in mainland China completely wiped out

#37

Post by frandroid » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 9:56 PM UTC

danharaj wrote: post #4

FussyZeus wrote: post #2

I wonder if China can fully enter the first world while still executing such a thorough and complete control over the media? Would anyone like to weigh in on if free speech is essential to what you'd consider a first world country, or is it simply one of those luxuries that only some need?

A media industry outside of the control of the government isn't required to be part of the "first world". Turkey is part of NATO, as first world as it gets, and their government is increasingly curtailing rights like freedom of assembly and the press. You are first world if the first world says you are first world. You are second world if the first world says you are second world. You are third world if the first wor…

There are a few NATO countries which don't quite qualify as "First World", and Turkey's crackdown of freedoms is a recent phenomenon.

Re: SCMP's online presence in mainland China completely wiped out

#38

Post by analyst74 » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 10:13 PM UTC

pdeuchler wrote: post #28

analyst74 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who in their right minds would want China to be the global hegemony when they censor free speech, treat people like they are disposable (Falun Gong body organ harvesting by President Zemin), impose Han Chinese ethnocentric ideologies as superior to the world as did Nazi Germany believed their blood made them pure? I can't believe people actually think this way... organ harvesting by the president?? Han Chinese ethn…

not defending the parent, but Falun Gong organ harvesting by the Chinese government is widely considered to be a real human rights crisis by many different countries, the EU, and the UN. It was also admitted by the Deputy Health Minister[0] in 2005. [0] http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/asia/article2612313...

Minor correction: organ harvesting by the Chinese government on death row prisoners is considered human rights crisis by many countries, so is the death sentence itself. Also, illegal organ harvesting by criminals probably exists, but is a serious crime.

Organ harvesting falun gong member just because they were part of a cult is a large leap of logic from what the government claims to do, and has been debunked many times. I was there when the cult was declared illegal, the few staunch practitioners in my neighbourhood were harassment by elderly women in neighbourhood watches daily, but few actually went to jail, let alone being sentenced to die or have their organs missing.

On the whole country's level, especially after the organization turned from a cult to anti-CCP dissident group, I won't be surprised some leaders are captured or even killed.

If anything, the successful campaign to legitimize falun gong, and various rumours they spread just shows how easily the public can be manipulated with fake facts. I didn't realize how many people actually believe in those propagandas until today, it has been quite a shocking revelation.

Just to put things in perspective, back before the cult was outlawed, their leader was advocating against seeing doctors when one is ill, and that practicing his school of qigong will cure all their problems.

Re: SCMP's online presence in mainland China completely wiped out

#39

Post by kelukelugames » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 10:35 PM UTC

analyst74 wrote: post #38

pdeuchler wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not defending the parent, but Falun Gong organ harvesting by the Chinese government is widely considered to be a real human rights crisis by many different countries, the EU, and the UN. It was also admitted by the Deputy Health Minister[0] in 2005. [0] http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/asia/article2612313...

Minor correction: organ harvesting by the Chinese government on death row prisoners is considered human rights crisis by many countries, so is the death sentence itself. Also, illegal organ harvesting by criminals probably exists, but is a serious crime. Organ harvesting falun gong member just because they were part of a cult is a large leap of logic from what the government claims to do, and has been debunked many t…

Keep in mind we live in a country where a sizable population still believes Planned Parenthood harvests fetuses from abortions.

Re: SCMP's online presence in mainland China completely wiped out

#40

Post by Spooky23 » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 10:36 PM UTC

0xffff2 wrote: post #26

Spooky23 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India: http://m.ndtv.com/india-news/fdi-is-first-develop-india-pm-m... US: https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/us-china-trade-reform Europe: http://carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurope/?fa=62990

Did you really just link a campaign position from Donald Trump of all people as evidence against globalization? Do you have any evidence of an actual shift away from globalization? Trump can talk himself to death, but that doesn't mean that we are actually doing anything to reduce our reliance on China or any other country.

Guess what, those flyover people whose jobs have been rendered redundant by outsourcing to China and automation using cheap imported technology vote.

Bernie Sanders has a different variation on a similar message. Voters love it.