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The Unbearable Asymmetry of Bullshit

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Re: The Unbearable Asymmetry of Bullshit

#31

Post by AlgorithmicTime »

pjc50 wrote: post #18
tempestn wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once it has become clear that someone is a "Lord Voldemort", it seems to me there's little value in continued careful consideration of their positions. At that point, if it's possible, why not discredit them and allow the rest of the world to start ignoring them and spend time on more promising endeavours?

"Discrediting" only works on some people. If it was universally applicable then Donald Trump wouldn't be the leading Republican candidate.

I'm convinced Trump could kill Marco Rubio on live TV in Times Square and receive a bump in the polls.

Re: The Unbearable Asymmetry of Bullshit

#32

Post by bshimmin »

For anyone thinking, "The words in the title sound sort of familiar, but I'm not sure why", it's a reference to "The Unbearable Lightness of Being", a great book by Milan Kundera which translated into Daniel Day-Lewis' worst film.

Re: The Unbearable Asymmetry of Bullshit

#33

Post by jakobegger »

jacalata wrote: post #16
nsns wrote: post #6

Instead of a sisyphean refutation of every attack, wouldn't a better strategy be to research and prove the attacker's conflict of interests (and thus discredit them)?

Absolutely, but then a dozen people who don't even know what you're arguing will pop out of the woodwork to say "ad hominem fallacy!"

Nah, that only happens on HN. Ad hominem is a very effective tactic everywhere else.

Re: The Unbearable Asymmetry of Bullshit

#34

Post by n4r9 »

Eupolemos wrote: post #20

Well, it is still a variation "On Bullshit" (Harry Frankfurt's excellent article). If someone in science is more interested in a position than whether the presented arguments individually holds up or not, that person is unscientifically invested and we should have some kind of mental allergic reaction to that. The "Publish or Perish" has made Gish Gallops much harder to catch and almost impossible to punish.

There's also the entertaining "On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs" by David Graeber, although it has less to say specifically about science: http://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/

Re: The Unbearable Asymmetry of Bullshit

#35

Post by krylon »

sharkjacobs wrote: post #12
nsns wrote: post #6

Instead of a sisyphean refutation of every attack, wouldn't a better strategy be to research and prove the attacker's conflict of interests (and thus discredit them)?

Arguing against the speaker instead of the argument itself is bullshit too. Having a vested interest doesn't automatically discredit the things one says for their cause.

Although, in the case of a "Gish Gallop" you can very well argue against the method, which is not so much about presenting evidence as it is about keeping you from presenting your side of issue.

If I present my argument in a manner that intellectually dishonest and/or distorts your position, you can call me out on that without going ad hominem.

Re: The Unbearable Asymmetry of Bullshit

#36

Post by themartorana »

brownbat wrote: post #19

The job market right now in the US forces grad students to attempt innovative research with remarkable conclusions. As a consequence, everyone's trying to prove more outlandish things while few are bothering with replications. If the field were sane, you would train all the apprentices on replication studies. Once they demonstrated dispassionate expertise with the tools, only then would they be allowed to try to use…

A lot of the time those same students are doing the bulk of the legwork for those findings then attributed to a professor, who is under greater pressure to advance (not confirm) science, who may or may not have even participated heavily in the grunt work of that research. The professor then punishes the work under his/her name, with no credit to the work of the students.

Re: The Unbearable Asymmetry of Bullshit

#37

Post by [deleted] »

AlgorithmicTime wrote: post #31
pjc50 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Discrediting" only works on some people. If it was universally applicable then Donald Trump wouldn't be the leading Republican candidate.

I'm convinced Trump could kill Marco Rubio on live TV in Times Square and receive a bump in the polls.

[deleted]

Re: The Unbearable Asymmetry of Bullshit

#38

Post by compactmani »

brownbat wrote: post #19

The job market right now in the US forces grad students to attempt innovative research with remarkable conclusions. As a consequence, everyone's trying to prove more outlandish things while few are bothering with replications. If the field were sane, you would train all the apprentices on replication studies. Once they demonstrated dispassionate expertise with the tools, only then would they be allowed to try to use…

If the work you are doing isn't reproducible, then it won't be cited as the building blocks for future work. The system is cleans itself out as a side effect. Therefore I prefer students to work on cutting edge research.

Re: The Unbearable Asymmetry of Bullshit

#39

Post by douche »

AlgorithmicTime wrote: post #31
pjc50 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Discrediting" only works on some people. If it was universally applicable then Donald Trump wouldn't be the leading Republican candidate.

I'm convinced Trump could kill Marco Rubio on live TV in Times Square and receive a bump in the polls.

I'm not convinced Rubio wouldn't look like this if he got ripped in half[1]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Z5sX4qC5HE

Re: The Unbearable Asymmetry of Bullshit

#40

Post by mda »

BatFastard wrote: post #21
rimantas wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many hypotheses can be dismissed because they violate some fundamental principals.

Aren't history's greatest breakthroughs idea's that break what was thought of as a fundamental principle?

Sure, but maybe parent meant fundamental principles like laws of thermodynamics.
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