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San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

nytimes.com

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Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#31

Post by fosk »

aetherson wrote: post #27
fosk wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in SF and the problem with housing here is that although the residential neighborhoods are very extended (think of the Richmond), most of the residential buildings are 2/3 story houses that cannot accomodate many people. We need to start replacing these little residential houses with 10 story buildings. There is nowhere else to build, we need to start upgrading the existing buildings. Will that change the city…

While I do support infill development, San Francisco is already a dense city (the second-densest city in the US after New York City, unless you count much smaller municipalities), and the idea that everyone must, must, must be given the opportunity to live in San Francisco proper is naïve, as is the idea that any but a tiny minority of the homeless in the city would ever be able to afford any kind of market-rate hous…

> There is Daly City and Colma and Millbrae and so forth down to San Jose

Sure, but then the city better start spending some billions to improve the infrastructure and public transportation: BART is a joke by modern standards, slow and dirty; the Caltrain is even worse with its diesel-powered locomotives like it's 1899.

Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#32

Post by exolymph »

fosk wrote: post #19
martinshen wrote: post #11

Housing and the homeless topics keep coming up on HN and in my social circles. It's frustrating. My real frustration is in fact with our cities are incentivizing businesses to create jobs while not creating more housing supply nor using that capital to improve our city like solve homelessness. This is unethical and despicable. The city is not run by the techies who work here. The city is run by rich companies AND ent…

I live in SF and the problem with housing here is that although the residential neighborhoods are very extended (think of the Richmond), most of the residential buildings are 2/3 story houses that cannot accomodate many people. We need to start replacing these little residential houses with 10 story buildings. There is nowhere else to build, we need to start upgrading the existing buildings. Will that change the city…

I'm not sure whether shameless self-promotion is frowned upon here, but I wrote a manifesto on this topic: http://www.tradeoffs.press/product/user-friendly-urbanism-ag...

Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#33

Post by gearoidoc »

martinshen wrote: post #17
1024core wrote: post #3

Every time the topic comes up, people from across the country start commenting on SF's homelessness woes. I live in SF, and consider our homeless situation unique. There are lots of mentally ill people, who have been hanging around for many years, thanks to good weather and generous people (and the easy availability of some drugs). Most of these people are NOT your typical "lost my job, lost my apartment, and hence a…

The most visible homeless and those we consider "the problem" certainly may be those who "cannot take care of themselves". However, the majority do not fit this category. I may be naive but I think we should be tackling the homeless with mental problems first. While I certainly have more empathy to those who have "lost my job, lost my apartment, and hence am homeless", I am unconfident that traditional support servic…

> the mentally ill make everyone (especially those homeless who have fallen on hard times) less safe.

Statistics please.

Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#34

Post by fweespeech »

1024core wrote: post #3

Every time the topic comes up, people from across the country start commenting on SF's homelessness woes. I live in SF, and consider our homeless situation unique. There are lots of mentally ill people, who have been hanging around for many years, thanks to good weather and generous people (and the easy availability of some drugs). Most of these people are NOT your typical "lost my job, lost my apartment, and hence a…

> Every time the topic comes up, people from across the country start commenting on SF's homelessness woes. I live in SF, and consider our homeless situation unique. There are lots of mentally ill people, who have been hanging around for many years, thanks to good weather and generous people (and the easy availability of some drugs). Most of these people are NOT your typical "lost my job, lost my apartment, and hence am homeless" types. Many of them are so mentally ill that putting them in a mental institution is the only option. They simply cannot take care of themselves.

Pretty much every coastal county along the West Coast and Florida has this "problem". It is not some unique snowflake SF problem. Yes, it may be 2-3x more common among the homeless but that isn't enough to consider them as anything other than people in need of help.

You are simply factually wrong about the "uniqueness" of your problem by any reasonable measure.

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-homeless-natio...

> Los Angeles city and county have the most chronically homeless people in the country, and nearly all of them sleep on the streets, according to figures released Thursday by the U.S. Housing and Urban Development Department.

http://www.samhsa.gov/disorders

> According to SAMHSA’s 2014 National Survey on Drug Use and Health (NSDUH) (PDF | 3.4 MB) an estimated 43.6 million (18.1%) Americans ages 18 and up experienced some form of mental illness. In the past year, 20.2 million adults (8.4%) had a substance use disorder. Of these, 7.9 million people had both a mental disorder and substance use disorder, also known as co-occurring mental and substance use disorders.

https://sfgov.org/lhcb/sites/sfgov.org.lhcb/files/2015%20San...

> The most frequently reported health condition was drug or alcohol abuse (37%), followed by psychiatric or emotional conditions (35%).

Homeless people are more like to be disadvantaged groups. [e.g. Poor people with one or more disadvantages, such as mental illness]

http://healthsciences.utah.edu/utahaddictioncenter/healthcar...

> 8.1% of the general population are illicit drug users of 1 or more times a month

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-con...

> Adults (ages 18+): 16.6 million adults ages 18 and older3 (7.0 percent of this age group4) had an AUD in 2013. This includes 10.8 million men3 (9.4 percent of men in this age group4) and 5.8 million women3 (4.7 percent of women in this age group4).

Similarly, it isn't surprising that a good chunk of them have used drugs/alcohol as any addiction is a disadvantage economically. However, the general population has those problems too to a substantial degree.

Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#35

Post by henrikschroder »

martinshen wrote: post #11

Housing and the homeless topics keep coming up on HN and in my social circles. It's frustrating. My real frustration is in fact with our cities are incentivizing businesses to create jobs while not creating more housing supply nor using that capital to improve our city like solve homelessness. This is unethical and despicable. The city is not run by the techies who work here. The city is run by rich companies AND ent…

Where I'm from, you're eligible to vote in municipal elections if you're a lawful permanent resident and have resided in the municipality for X years. Citizenship is required for all the election levels above, but local politics is shaped by the people who actually live there. Which I think is pretty nice.

I was surprised that in the US, citizenship is required for voting at any level! I can see how that was an attractive policy when the US was originally settled and there were no H1-b visas or 10-year green card wait lists, and being a US citizen didn't make you tax liable globally. But now? Doesn't make a lot of sense.

Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#36

Post by SeoxyS »

jpindar wrote: post #14
tropo wrote: post #9

Meanwhile, houses in Detroit can be purchased for the cost of a month's rent in SF. The solution is obvious, no? It seems that people want so badly to live in some of the nation's most expensive real estate that they are willing to be homeless. That's a choice. The quarter billion spent on them is an enabler. It encourages them to stay homeless.

I get your point, but Detroit is a really bad example. Who would want to live with undrinkable water and the highest murder rate in the country, with essentially no municipal services, in a house so run down that it'd be condemned in any other city?

You must be thinking of St. Louis and Flint, MI…

That, plus I hear Detroit is bouncing back a bit. The homeless would probably become jobless, there. A slight improvement, I guess.

Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#37

Post by jkyle »

martinshen wrote: post #17
1024core wrote: post #3

Every time the topic comes up, people from across the country start commenting on SF's homelessness woes. I live in SF, and consider our homeless situation unique. There are lots of mentally ill people, who have been hanging around for many years, thanks to good weather and generous people (and the easy availability of some drugs). Most of these people are NOT your typical "lost my job, lost my apartment, and hence a…

The most visible homeless and those we consider "the problem" certainly may be those who "cannot take care of themselves". However, the majority do not fit this category. I may be naive but I think we should be tackling the homeless with mental problems first. While I certainly have more empathy to those who have "lost my job, lost my apartment, and hence am homeless", I am unconfident that traditional support servic…

Most severely mentally ill are not violent nor a danger to anyone, except perhaps themselves through neglect.

> A widespread belief that the afflicted are violent contributes to the stigma of mental illness and as such may interfere with their seeking and obtaining appropriate assistance. Debunking this misconception will likely lead to progress in helping troubled individuals [...] [1]

1. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/deranged-and-dange...

Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#38

Post by pjlegato »

What San Francisco needs is a free, high quality, in-patient psychiatric hospital.

No, I am not talking about a stereotypical 1960s Nurse Ratchett type dungeon psych ward. I am talking about a modern and caring facility where homeless people with severe mental problems and drug/alcohol addiction can check in and get help. If they need it, they should be able to live there on a long-term basis.

It says the city of San Francisco spends $242 million a year on homeless services. That'd build and operate a very nice psych hospital.

Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#39

Post by pjlegato »

jacobolus wrote: post #12
1024core wrote: post #3

Every time the topic comes up, people from across the country start commenting on SF's homelessness woes. I live in SF, and consider our homeless situation unique. There are lots of mentally ill people, who have been hanging around for many years, thanks to good weather and generous people (and the easy availability of some drugs). Most of these people are NOT your typical "lost my job, lost my apartment, and hence a…

How many homeless people have you talked to? In my (anecdotal) experience just chatting with people, there are plenty of “lost my job and now I’m homeless” folks in SF. These tend to be a bit less visible than the mentally ill though. More generally, many homeless people become mentally unstable or take up mind-altering substances after a while living on the street. It’s a really stressful, socially alientating situa…

I've talked to a lot of homeless people in SF, often involuntarily.

Anecdotally, roughly half seem to have severe mental problems and/or severe drug and alcohol problems (these often overlap.)

Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#40

Post by 20years »

iamnothere wrote: post #20
20years wrote: post #10

This is very similar to the homeless situation where I live. We had to recently break up a camp in one of the beach communities too. Many, many drug addicts (especially meth) and mentally ill (possibly due to drugs). Simply providing shelter is not the solution imo. The challenge is so much bigger than that. Drug rehab services need to be provided or even required. The easy access to drugs also needs to be addressed.…

This is directly contrary to what has been found to work in practice. Mental illness and drug addiction can take years to treat successfully, and it's impossible to treat people who don't live in a fixed location. "Housing first" policies treat housing as the first priority, necessary for even gaining access to help people with other problems. Without housing, many of these people gradually become worse off and event…

"we need to provide shelter along with drug rehab services"
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